A slacker's perspective on Ubuntu, Fedora, Debian, and OpenSUSE . . .
SlackwareThis Forum is for the discussion of Slackware Linux.
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I'm a Vector slacker these daze. I'm waiting to see what the guys at Mint come up with in their newest Debian based versions.
It's a bit wobbly right now but if their Ubuntu based 8. and 9. are any indication of what lies ahead for their Debian based version..................It oughta rock !!!
p.s. dimm0k, the splash screen can easily be switched to the scrolling text w/ the Esc key. This was done when Plymouth support was added. The advantage of Plymouth is that it allows you to review boot messages after your system has booted and also provides a method to display a graphical boot (animated or not) instead of the text. However, like I said, the text is still there.
Ahh, thank you, I did not know that! Do you know if there is a way of having something similar in Slackware in regards to being able to review boot messages? The scrollback buffer can only save so much and /var/log/messages and dmesg do not always capture everything.
You can increase the scrollback buffer size for the VGA console, and also increase the kernel log buffer size, one or both of which should help you be able to see more of the bootup messages if you're finding them to be truncated due to lack of sufficient buffer.
Both these are kernel config options, so you'd usually want to rebuild your kernel with the modified values, but there's also a boot option you can use in your bootloader (LILO?) for setting the size of the kernel printk ring buffer; I *think* this option would be setting the same thing as the log buffer size option I mentioned in paragraph #1 above:
Code:
log_buf_len=n Sets the size of the printk ring buffer, in bytes.
You can read about this option in your kernel sourcecode's /Documentation directory on your system, specifically in the file called "kernel-parameters.txt" - which is a very interesting read anyways, so I recommend reading it for the heck of it.
Fedora -- In contrast to the other tested distributions, Fedora felt positively snappy! There is a certain tightness and fluidity in the user experience missing from the other distributions. From what I've read, that was on purpose; the Fedora team spent a lot of time on user interface issues with this latest release. I found Yumex to be delightful to use. Fedora, with Gnome, did the best job of working well and getting out of my way. I liked that.
Well that's good to hear. The last time I tried Fedora was around version 7 and Yumex was a pile of crap: bloated buggy and terribly slow.
I tried Fedora 13 and OpenSUSE 11.3 a short while back. I really liked OpenSUSE. Fedora seemed ok too, but I found that each time I went through the package updates it seemed to pull in additional packages as new requirements, which gave me the impression the OS was swelling underneath me and that put me off a little. Anyway, a 6 month release lifetime is far to short to be of any use so Fedora remains a curiosity/testing/plaything distro in my eyes.
If I wasn't content with Slackware I could easily see myself running OpenSUSE (though I do worry about what will happen when Novell is broken into pieces and it's sold off).
Ubuntu: I've never liked from a technical perspective, and Canonical themselves clearly have an Agenda: pushing their App Stores/music store, and other Services in an attempt to monetize it, which makes me a little distrustful of it's future direction. It's almost like they're trying to be Apple.
debian: I think my opinion of debian gets unfairly tainted by association with Ubuntu. I've not used the real debian in over 12 years and it probably doesn't deserve my opinion of it.
I've been meaning to try gentoo for quite a while now. I think it would suit me quite well. I just don't know how healthy the project/community is at the moment. Last I read people seemed to be complaining that the project was 'stagnating'. Not sure how much truth there was in that, or whether it's just the usual sort of grumbling you get on forums.
Nice reviews! I am feeling a little bit of wanderlust after being a happy slacker for about a year now. Maybe I'll have to look into VM's to check out the latest of the mainstream distros.
Thanks for your careful and considered observations Lufbery. Nicely done.
One problem I have when comparing slackware with any other OS is that I've gained so much knowledge and experience with slackware (and I've still got much to learn!) that what's easy for me to do may well be a several hour ordeal for a newcomer to slackware. In fact, I did have this experience in my early days of slacking. But, as is so often said, RTFM really pays dividends with slackware and this forum is superb for most other issues. Once I figured that out, my experience became soooo much smoother.
I have used ubuntu and mint and although initially impressed, it did wane when updates I didn't ask for, or at least knowingly ask for, caused problems. I'm sure I could learn my way around such issues, but I wasn't that inclined. Also, although there's a great community for ubuntu and mint, the signal to noise on the forums is much better here for slackware.
The most significant difference, and most discussed, is to do with dependencies. It certainly is convenient to just select packages and hit the Apply button in ubuntu, but using sbopkg and dealing with them manually is only slightly more effort for me and gives me much more freedom and understanding and things to try when something goes wrong. I have to admit that when slackbuilds doesn't have a slackbuild I need then things can get a little time consuming but src2pkg or wine often come to the rescue if time is of the essence.
But, when it comes down to it, I'm just the kind of person that just wants to understand what's going on and slackware and this forum allows me to do that. That's getting increasingly rare with all our technology and so slackware has become precious to me.
Good luck with LFS Lufbery. I spent many pleasant hours on it with complete success a few months back. I'll share out my notes in a bit. It was on a slackware host, of course.
I have been using Slack off and on for 15 years and my biggest complaint is exactly what you said, the dependencies and the bad way Slackware handles them. I too like to have control, but there comes a time when you just have to say WTF. In another post I made today in this group was about exactly this, and it drives me insane. I have been trying to get my webcam set up and tried today to get Cheese and Wxcam intalled without luck, and due to exactly this. So a happy medium would be nice with Slackware, but as it is now I find it unusable in many ways because of this and is why I looked at this thread to see about alternatives.
Last edited by Beauford2008; 09-28-2010 at 08:39 PM.
Slackware's approach isn't for everyone and that's just fine. One of my conclusions following my little experiment is that, due to a lot of hard work from a lot of people, nearly any major distribution will install and run well and nearly any hardware built in (at least) the last ten years.
The whole dependency-checking debate (Is it good or bad? Should Slackware have it vs. other distros have dependency hell) -- well, I think it's dead now. Slackware doesn't and probably shouldn't have dependency checking, and other distros don't seem to have dependency hell.
You've been around Linux for a while, so setting up LILO or Grub to dual boot with another Linux distribution should go pretty smoothly for you. Try something else for a while and then let us know how it works out for you.
I have been using Slack off and on for 15 years and my biggest complaint is exactly what you said, the dependencies and the bad way Slackware handles them. I too like to have control, but there comes a time when you just have to say WTF. In another post I made today in this group was about exactly this, and it drives me insane. I have been trying to get my webcam set up and tried today to get Cheese and Wxcam intalled without luck, and due to exactly this. So a happy medium would be nice with Slackware, but as it is now I find it unusable in many ways because of this and is why I looked at this thread to see about alternatives.
Apologies for seeming a little pedantic but "the dependencies and the bad way Slackware handles them" isn't really fair. Slackware doesn't handle dependencies, so it can't handle them badly! But, I think I get your meaning.
What you find lacking in slackware doesn't bother me and even has some advantages for me. The experience you refer to with cheese is very frustrating I'm sure, but also very rare in my experience. Usually I just queue up a few dependencies using sbopkg and then it happily builds and installs it all for me.
I see this as very subjective (count the "me"s in the last para!) - if slackware isn't for you, there are plenty more distros in the sea. Happy hopping!
Thanks for the very helpful review. It is nice to see someone avoid a fanatical perspective with Linux distros.
I've tried the distributions that you mentioned and also had a very positive impression of Fedora. Most of the differences among GNOME distributions had to do with the details of installing and configuring software. In some ways the Linux distro that we know is the best Linux distro.
Two recent developments have been a factor in my choice of distributions. I don't like GRUB2 and try to avoid distros that use it (for now). I like many of the features of KDE 4 but I've found that it has more problems and is more complicated than KDE 3.
I've stuck with Slackware because of the good track record of stable releases and investment in fixing important bugs. I am concerned with the way KDE is being developed. At some point the major features of KDE 4 have to be "finished" and the focus must shift to fixing bugs. If that doesn't happen KDE will be forever broken. KDE is the thing most likely to affect my choice of distros because I might move to a GNOME environment.
Slackware is noteworthy since it has a large vested interest in seeing KDE succeed. I hope that KDE developers will pay attention to input from the Slackware team. Right now I think that Slackware is the only reason I am still trying to stick with KDE and haven't moved to GNOME or something else. The ironic thing is that KDE 3 was a major reason why I chose Slackware in the first place.
I'm just an "ordinary user" of Slackware since 9.0. I still road-test the group of Debian-Fedora-openSUSE-Ubuntu distros once a year just to remind me of how really brilliant Slackware's design philosophy is (thanks Pat, Robby, Eric, Ponce, etc!). They also give me a chance to see what Gnome has turned into (*sigh*) these past few years...
I take KDE SC's work-in-progress in stride. Version 4.5.1 on the x86 laptop has treated me well except for glitches in KWord, for example.
Xfce really shines on Slackware (thank you, Robby...thank you, thank you, thank you!) and is my everyday desktop on my x86_64 lappy. (A HP G60, if anyone's interested.) I've used LXDE & Fluxbox, but still prefer Xfce. (And used Window Maker on Debian a decade+ ago...with an 8mb SIS card...)
The lack of dependency resolution is one of Slackware's high points. I can install Stellarium without pulling in eleven packages I don't want. Why Ubuntu and Trisquel (a nice Ubuntu-based distro BTW) want to pull in pulseaudio packages for Stellarium is beyond me. (Not a fan of pulseaudio anyway. Bleech.)
Of course, I may have just been using Slackware for so long that I prefer being a control freak when it comes to choosing an OS and its components. It really is the closest thing to doing LFS. (And, yes, I have used Sabayon and Arch for months at a time on one machine or another. As well as having used FreeBSD 4.7 - 7.2. But FreeBSD 8.0...ech.)
From my perspective, Slackware doesn't bury scripts under layer after layer of symlinks or patch programs to death to make everything work together. Slackware keeps a Linux OS understandable to mere mortals like myself.
I used Slackware for many many years, only taking a year to experiment with OS X (I got the last damn PPC powerbook, like a total sucker) and later Ubuntu (it used to be somewhat ahead of the curve on laptop-specific driver support, I think). A few months ago I put Slackware 64 on my main rig, and I still cannot get over how much it rocks.
Say what you want about Ubuntu, but it has some very strong points. The strongest one, I think, and the one that came up quite a few times for me, is that you can really hurl Ubuntu at Windows and OS X addicts with zero technical knowledge, and not hear from them for months. At the same time, you can be reasonably sure that they found the software they needed, installed it without breaking the system, and pulled all the latest security patches. Not very many GNU/Linux distributions can have this badge. The forums are really, really good (as good as this one ). The software is leading edge, with minimal effort on user's part. Last but not the least, their stance towards free software is acceptable. People keep saying that they may get rotten one day, but I would like to see it to believe it. It's just GNU/Linux, there is no vendor lock: their users would simply undo the annoying parts, or, if they rot completely, flee to something like Debian, and Shuttleworth knows it.
My personal vote is for Slackware, but I must give it to Ubuntu: I weaned people from Windows several times now, and I didn't even have to hold their hand.
Last edited by qweasd; 09-30-2010 at 12:31 AM.
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). The software is leading edge, with minimal effort on user's part. Last but not the least, their stance towards free software is acceptable. People keep saying that they may get rotten one day, but I would like to see it to believe it. It's just GNU/Linux, there is no vendor lock: their users would simply undo the annoying parts, or, if they rot completely, flee to something like Debian, and Shuttleworth knows it.
