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Old 09-26-2017, 10:40 PM   #31
frankbell
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Quote:
This is three hook troll bait.
Well said.

It seems to me that OP's definition of "user friendly" translates to "I don't have to use my brain."

Furrfu.
 
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Old 09-27-2017, 05:04 AM   #32
wishwell
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The words below are answers to those people only. Hopefully not all Slackware community jumps the gun like that because someone simply dares to ask such and similar questions. If I had been a potential investor, I might have formed a bad impression...

@ bassmadrigal

Quote:
So, you link to an article about Debain being difficult to install 10 years ago?
Um, the article is from 2016? Besides, I think what applied to a Debian install 10 years ago may roughly compare to a Slackware current install, with two important mentions, of course:

-Debian 10 years ago is harder to install than current Debian
-Debian 10 years ago is easier to install than current Slackware

Draw your own conclusions, but I still think Linus is on Fedora. (sorry for any possible mischievous interpretation...)

@ allend

Quote:
Slackware pre-installed and optimised by the computer manufacturer would be bliss.
Nothing new here; same goes for any other OS.


@ Chuang Tzu;

Quote:
… when it is quite clear your OP is not looking for an honest discussion…
Let’s assume you are right. But where is the objective evidence to support this argument, my dear Poirot?...

Quote:
Similar to a thief saying "dear sir, I kindly ask why don't you give me your money" as he has a bat in his other hand.
This comparison is offensive and very gratuitous. I don’t remember starting to attacking anyone, unless you consider asking why isn’t Slackware more user friendly an attack. That would explain a lot...

Quote:
I will turn this on you, imagine a world where the only OS is, Windows, iOS or ubuntu.…
That is already happening to a certain degree. And by the way, unless you you have tons of time to waste, would you prefer to teach each of your family members how to... “bash” (couldn’t help the pun…) a Slackware smartphone, or “tap” an iphone or Android?...

Quote:
I like competition, I like creativity, I like options.
Creativity and options may actually breathe more easily outside competition, ever thought of the possibility?

Quote:
Give the world 1,000 OS's to choose from and it will be a better place.
How about give the world one OS that every IT expert knows how to work on, with a few different spins catering to specific needs (for ex. Education, forensics etc.); thus eliminating bugs, regressions, reinventing the wheel and ego wars?...

Quote:
Slackware is more pragmatic then idealistic, more philosophical then idealogical...
Whatever you say, but speaking of contexts, if you compare terms (https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/ideology) like they are not synonyms, would you be so kind to explain their difference here?...

Quote:
In a response you mentioned RMS using Trisquel as if that means something… When asked why he now uses Trisquel, his answer was blunt, because someone gave me a computer and it was installed on it or something along those lines.
Let’s put aside the statistical number of computers already preinstalled with either Dragora vs Trisquel...

If anyone, be it beginner or expert, received a laptop which came preinstalled with either and already configured for daily needs, then of course it doesn’t matter which system they’d use. But let them reinstall a newer version of either on the same laptop. I say the following have a high probability of happening:

-the beginner will fail with Dragora, but succeed with Trisquel
-the expert will succeed with either, but will lose about an extra hour installing and configuring Dragora compared to a Trisquel install.

Now, from the set of all IT experts, there is a good chance that some will look at that extra hour as hobby fun, but others will see it as a waste of time when they need to be productive somewhere else.

Quote:
What was wrong with the 90's? Heck Unix goes back alot longer then that, what was wrong with the 50's, 60's? Car's have had wheels for 100 years, does that make it a bad design? Planes have had wings since their first design, should we scrap that and make wingless planes, just well dammit because wings are so retro?
Nothing wrong with the past seen as technological progress as opposed to technological stagnation.

Your analogies are missallied, sorry. Cars are fine, but would you ride a chariot today? Hey, it’s not that hard to use and caring for horses is a breeze once you read the proper documentation…

Planes are fine with their wings, but I can only imagine Star Trek Enterprise having the shape of a Bell YFM-1 Airacuda. Indeed, why innovate at all?

Quote:
There are two types of education: one in which the person learns to think and become independent and one in which the person memorizes things in order to satisfy tests and become a good little automaton.
What you are failing to mention is that the first type can further be divided:
-learn to think the way we want you to think
-learn to think by even questioning your teachers

Quote:
Hey, BTW, this typing and writing stuff has been around for millenias, lets throw it out and just go straight subliminal. .....did you hear what I thought after that?
Outside ironic remark, but subliminally pathetic, due to artificially contorting the topic at hand.

@ enorbet

Quote:
Ahhh so now we know why you apparently find Slackware "user unfriendly". You have cut yourself off from the most flexible, most powerful tool in computing.
Sounds like cheap marketing to me, otherwise NASA, the French Gendarmerie, CERN and others don’t know what they are missing…


@ tazza

Quote:
I'm sick and tired of the mob dictating what is easy and what isn't.
It’s not the mob, it’s the objective comparison of time spent doing two things that have different methods but the same end result. Since life time is precious and the system is stable enough to do what the user needs, it is only natural selection happening to prefer the easier path.

The end user won’t care that MS-DOS is less demanding on the CPU by a few percentages when compared to graphical Windows; same thing with regards to Slacware vs Mint.

Quote:
There is a parallel here with the US system of "common core maths".. instead of simply doing 32-12=20 you have to work through no less than *6 different lines* to get the same result.
That very much sounds like the unnecessary complications Slackware brings to the table when compared to any operating system which is actually modern beyond time frame.


@ frankbell

Quote:
It seems to me that OP's definition of "user friendly" translates to "I don't have to use my brain."
Such one-line-two-bit replies surely are intelligent!

Or maybe response was carelessly made, without properly reading the documentation… oops, I mean my previous replies where I very well define what I meant by “user friendliness”.
 
Old 09-27-2017, 06:24 AM   #33
55020
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@wishwell, because you're a beginner who knows what a VC is looking for, it would be great to see your advice about how Slackware's systemd and pam could be more user friendly
 
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Old 09-27-2017, 06:46 AM   #34
bassmadrigal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wishwell View Post
The words below are answers to those people only. Hopefully not all Slackware community jumps the gun like that because someone simply dares to ask such and similar questions. If I had been a potential investor, I might have formed a bad impression...
As far as I know, Slackware isn't looking for any venture capitalists. And even more, a VC would be stupid if they went to a forum to answer your questions rather than to the man himself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wishwell View Post
@ bassmadrigal



Um, the article is from 2016? Besides, I think what applied to a Debian install 10 years ago may roughly compare to a Slackware current install, with two important mentions, of course:

-Debian 10 years ago is harder to install than current Debian
-Debian 10 years ago is easier to install than current Slackware

Draw your own conclusions, but I still think Linus is on Fedora. (sorry for any possible mischievous interpretation...)
I chose my verbiage carefully. It doesn't matter when the article was written. It was talking about installing Debian 10 years ago. What does an article about the installation procedures of Debian have anything to do with Slackware (and who cares if Linus uses Fedora? Do you want Slackware to be Fedora? If so, just use Fedora and let us keep our Slackware as is)? You made no comparisons, just implying the reader should "jump to conclusions" because you provided nothing concrete.

You still decided to beat around the bush rather than just say that Slackware is hard for *you* to install. If that is the case, then Slackware isn't made with you in mind. If you're not willing to get your hands a little dirty and dig through a bit of documentation (or even watch a video) on some process you're not familiar with, then the rest of Slackware wouldn't be ideal either. Slackware isn't trying to be the distro for everyone, but with a little bit of work, everyone should be able to run it. It just takes some trying and reading.

As I said in my earlier comment. No one distro can please everyone. That is the beauty of Linux. There are so many different flavors that there's bound to be several to your liking, even if there's some you don't like. I won't run Ubuntu because I don't like how it does things (it annoys me enough just using Bash on Ubuntu on Windows... I need to get a Bash on Slackware on Windows up and running ). Does that mean that the masses who use Ubuntu are wrong? No, if it works for them, then great!

I don't see why you even seem to care at this point. You came in this thread with your opinions already formed and it seems like you were just here to troll rather than to learn. If you want to use Fedora, just use Fedora and leave us be.
 
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Old 09-27-2017, 07:06 AM   #35
fido_dogstoyevsky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wishwell View Post
...What's wrong with user friendliness in Slackware? Yes, I'm aware it exists for the experts; for them, probably even machine language is friendly enough. I'm asking about beginners.
As many other people have said, but using different words: Slackware IS user friendly; just like teachers ARE student friendly.
 
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Old 09-27-2017, 07:28 AM   #36
tazza
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wishwell View Post
@ tazza

It’s not the mob, it’s the objective comparison of time spent doing two things that have different methods but the same end result. Since life time is precious and the system is stable enough to do what the user needs, it is only natural selection happening to prefer the easier path.
It's not though. Time after time Windows has shoved things down peoples throats they never wanted nor asked for.. people adapt to that way of doing things so it becomes second nature, and thus "easy". It's only easy because they don't know any better. A simple example of going back to "the old way" is ctrl-c,shift-insert. Everyone uses the mouse at first, which is cumbersome as hell when you need to constantly move data around all day - as soon as they get used to the key strokes they use that - a better example is AutoCad.. instead of moving the mouse all the way to the particular icon needed or click through a dozen menus, anyone who uses it frequently use keyboard commands with the mouse never moving from the drawing - the icons are never used because they realise typing commands is faster and more efficient.

I'm using Windows as a reference because other distros are changing to be more and more like it. Abstracting what's really going on under the pretense of ease of use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wishwell View Post
The end user won’t care that MS-DOS is less demanding on the CPU by a few percentages when compared to graphical Windows; same thing with regards to Slacware vs Mint.
I wasn't talking about CPU usage, and anyone who comes around to my place jumps onto the PC and feels as at home as if it *were* Mint.. it's still KDE for the desktop after all (yeah yeah, Mints default is Cinnamon - but you get my drift).

Quote:
Originally Posted by wishwell View Post
That very much sounds like the unnecessary complications Slackware brings to the table when compared to any operating system which is actually modern beyond time frame.
It's not though. As long as one can read a man page then over time they come to the realisation one small shell program can accomplish 10 times what the GUI front end can (if one even exists at all); Okay all distros have access to a terminal so I'll bring up init. Answer the following honestly.. what is difficult about having daemons do one particular thing, each with their own configs that are easy to understand, and every one can be disabled at boot simply by removing execute permissions. What's the alternative? Most of them look like the init version of spaghetti code and it's a pain in the backside trying to figure out what is relying on what.
 
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Old 09-27-2017, 12:40 PM   #37
enorbet
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Re: The CLI as the most powerful, flexible tool in computing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wishwell View Post
@ enorbet
Sounds like cheap marketing to me, otherwise NASA, the French Gendarmerie, CERN and others don’t know what they are missing…
For starters are you trying to say that nobody in those three organizations ever uses a terminal? If so, citation please as I very seriously doubt it or even if that information has ever been gathered and documented. This appears to be yet another unfounded assertion from authority you have made here and that is highly suspect.

I can tell you that a longtime friend of mine has been working for Goddard Space Flight Center for over 20 years and he routinely uses command line. Some commonality exists in which he can use GUI but he requires complete flexibility for specificity and feedback.

That you continue to champion locked down, one size fits all applications and operating systems while noting "authorities" you assume have the answer for everyone speaks volumes about your capacity, or lack thereof, as an admin. That you smear across lines - ie: quote what distro you assume Authority A uses to defend one position but ignore what they use in another - is both inconsistent and wrong. Example- On one hand you promote what distro Stallman and Linus use but on the other you apparently imagine Stallman and Linus never open a terminal. That inconsistency is either insincere or delusional.

Face it. In the computing world you are an "adolescent" that requires a "parent".
 
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Old 09-27-2017, 01:07 PM   #38
dugan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 55020 View Post
@wishwell, because you're a beginner who knows what a VC is looking for, it would be great to see your advice about how Slackware's systemd and pam could be more user friendly
I'm more surprised he hasn't asked about its package manager and dependency resolution...
 
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Old 09-27-2017, 01:12 PM   #39
qweasd
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"User-friendliness" is too ambiguous and subjective of a concept to throw around unqualified Typically what people mean is a slick GUI, like Windoze is user-friendly, because it makes it easy to copy files without typing arcane shell commands. I personally enjoy calling fully free+libre distributions "user-friendly" simply because I consider any closed source blob, firmware or not, as an almost certain spyware/malware container. The sheer hostility implicit in handing a blob to a user, especially an unsuspecting neophyte, gives me enough grounds, IMHO, to say things like "all FSF-approved distributions are automatically more user-friendly than almost anything else out there". This is done tongue-in-cheek, of course, since no one owns the "user-friendly", but it reflects my actual level of dissatisfaction with the closed source.

Concerning question 2, about working with FSF, some people pointed out already, Slackware falls short of their bar by including what they call nonfree software, and by lacking specific policy commitments in that area. It is hard to see why Pat V. would suddenly change his approach to vetting included software after 30 years, so in all likelihood things will stay just as they are.

There is, however, a project with the goal of deblobbing Slackware and producing a fork that would be certifiable by FSF. Known provisionally as FreeSlack or FXP, it is considered stable, and has users. As a co-maintainer of FXP and an associate member at FSF, I am perhaps the closest thing to a bridge between Slackware and FSF. We are not affiliated with the Slackware project, but we make an effort to be active within the Slackware community, with the understanding that these are the people who are solving all of the technical problems for us

We have been under FSF review for more than a year now. The only thing brought to our attention by the FSF thus far was the name, FreeSlack, which they feel is too close to Slackware. We always knew the distribution may have to get a unique name, so we were ready with alternatives: FXP and one more option. We are still waiting for the name approval, but other than that little snafoo, we think we are in full compliance with FSDG.
 
Old 09-27-2017, 01:27 PM   #40
ChuangTzu
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wishwell....I wish you well on your journey, whatever that may be and where ever that may take you. Your responses only confirm what I already said. BTW, a real VC never announces him/herself as such, those who know---know who they are.

Perhaps, your and our time would be better spent if you focus on the distribution that you think/consider to be near perfect. I bid you adieu the little grey cells have more important matters to attend to.
 
Old 09-27-2017, 01:30 PM   #41
dugan
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Hey wishwell. I'm actually a bit curious as to how much (if any) personal experience you actually have with Slackware, and what you know about Slackware as a business. Would you be kind enough to give us a rundown of both?

Thanks.

Last edited by dugan; 09-27-2017 at 01:35 PM.
 
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Old 09-27-2017, 02:19 PM   #42
brianL
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I've said it before, I'll say it again. Distro choice is a matter of taste. Slackware suits me. It's for newbies, oldies, and anybody in between who prefers it to other distros. I was relatively new to computers, and new to Linux, when I first installed it (late 2004).
I've tried most of the rest, but prefer Slackware.
As for philosophy - we don't do that sort of thing in Oldham.

Last edited by brianL; 09-27-2017 at 02:20 PM.
 
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Old 09-27-2017, 02:58 PM   #43
55020
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brianL! Blimey! This thread was 100% worthwhile just to see you back
 
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Old 09-27-2017, 04:41 PM   #44
onebuck
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Member response

Hi,
Quote:
Originally Posted by brianL View Post
I've said it before, I'll say it again. Distro choice is a matter of taste. Slackware suits me. It's for newbies, oldies, and anybody in between who prefers it to other distros. I was relatively new to computers, and new to Linux, when I first installed it (late 2004).
I've tried most of the rest, but prefer Slackware.
As for philosophy - we don't do that sort of thing in Oldham.
Glad too see you back with that good ole insight.
 
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Old 09-27-2017, 05:21 PM   #45
allend
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Quote:
brianL! Blimey! This thread was 100% worthwhile just to see you back
+1
 
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