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Old 05-10-2021, 03:33 AM   #16
chrisretusn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyCyborg View Post
Does no matter, if you are use your computer at home...

Any LTS kernel becomes obsolete in no more than one year, for any home user.
Citation please.
 
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Old 05-10-2021, 10:05 PM   #17
notzed
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bassmadrigal View Post
But, I'll echo my previous statement: how many users are going to utilize those new features? Or even care about them? Or even know about them?
Any that buy a new piece of hardware and it doesn't work at all or only in such a degraded state as to be unacceptable? An estimated 218M laptops were sold last year so potentially 'quite a few'. Hardware also fails and needs replacing.

Although you acknowledge it I think you're underselling the problem of having the gfx drivers in the kernel together with the cadence of modern kernel development. This affects at least all new-model laptops and graphics cards and those both come out at a roughly yearly cadence - and they sell in large numbers. wifi hardware changes constantly as well which is another well-known kernel version choke-point.

Even if one only buys a laptop or gpu once every 5+ years it isn't likely to align with slackware's long release cycle so chances are high that it wont work properly without a custom kernel. It can affect older hardware too, accelerated 3D support for GCN 1.0 GPUs (decade old hardware that i'm using now) was all messed up for a couple of years well after it was released and iirc 14.2's kernel was never really good enough (could be misremembering, I definitely needed a newer kernel for vulkan hough - SI support wasn't included in amdgpu until 4.16).
 
Old 05-10-2021, 10:20 PM   #18
bassmadrigal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notzed View Post
Any that buy a new piece of hardware and it doesn't work at all or only in such a degraded state as to be unacceptable? An estimated 218M laptops were sold last year so potentially 'quite a few'. Hardware also fails and needs replacing.

Although you acknowledge it I think you're underselling the problem of having the gfx drivers in the kernel together with the cadence of modern kernel development. This affects at least all new-model laptops and graphics cards and those both come out at a roughly yearly cadence - and they sell in large numbers. wifi hardware changes constantly as well which is another well-known kernel version choke-point.
I never said new hardware doesn't need a newer kernel. There's a reason I didn't stick with the 4.4 kernel on my 14.2 Ryzen system. And also why I didn't stick with the Mesa version in 14.2 for my newer GPU.

Quote:
Originally Posted by notzed View Post
Even if one only buys a laptop or gpu once every 5+ years it isn't likely to align with slackware's long release cycle so chances are high that it wont work properly without a custom kernel. It can affect older hardware too, accelerated 3D support for GCN 1.0 GPUs (decade old hardware that i'm using now) was all messed up for a couple of years well after it was released and iirc 14.2's kernel was never really good enough (could be misremembering, I definitely needed a newer kernel for vulkan hough - SI support wasn't included in amdgpu until 4.16).
Again, I'm not discounting newer hardware needing newer kernels. I am well aware of how that works and how kernel devs don't backport device support to older kernels. However, if your hardware is *properly* supported by newer kernels, many users aren't wanting to go through the hassle of upgrading to a newer kernel without knowing it will provide support for something (like amdgpu dc). Yes, newer kernels might provide better support for your hardware, but if you aren't having issues with your current kernel, you may not care enough to try and get a new kernel.

Think about how many packages are currently out of date on SBo, 14.2, or even -current. Do you miss the newer features or bug fixes that are in those newer packages? Not without knowing what those newer features or bug fixes are.

If your system is working properly and you don't track kernel development, then you are unlikely to care about what newer features are available in newer kernels unless something is significantly news worthy and you happened to see articles about this new feature. In these cases, LTS kernels make perfect sense. Just like how a 2005 Honda Civic makes perfect sense to one owner where another owner needs to lease the latest and greatest every year or two, because that's something they care about.

I'd be interested in seeing how many Linux users build their own kernels. I imagine it's not a majority. If things work, many want to leave it untouched. Pat does a great job with his stable releases to mainly push security issues as patches.
 
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Old 05-10-2021, 11:33 PM   #19
drgibbon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyCyborg View Post
Not only that any user adds new hardware to their own PC at least on an annual base
I can't speak for other people, but I don't do this.
 
Old 05-11-2021, 12:45 AM   #20
ttk
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Does nobody choose hardware anymore based on the software they want to run on it?

That seems terribly fundamental.
 
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Old 05-11-2021, 01:21 AM   #21
STDOUBT
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Same hardware here for the past 10 years.
The only reason I'll ever "need" a new kernel is for security fixes...
Looking forward to jumping off current at this point - 15 will be amazing!
I might even move to 64 bit (finally got 8GB RAM for my R61:-)
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1337_powerslacker View Post
5.10 LTS to be maintained until 2026
Neat!
 
Old 05-11-2021, 06:09 AM   #22
GazL
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Did the GPU hang issues some folks were having with 5.10 ever get fixed?

The previous time intel gpu issues were causing me problems was in late 5.3 and those were fixed in 5.5, but they were never backported to the 5.4 LTS; so quite honestly, at this point I have no faith in the longevity, or usefulness of a LTS branch.
 
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Old 05-11-2021, 06:36 AM   #23
marav
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I see things differently
To me, LTS does not mean that it is more stable or offers more (or the same) fixes as other releases
it means that if I don't want to change the version every 3 months and it works perfectly on my computer, I have the insurance that it will be supported with improvements & security patches, for another 5 years

Last edited by marav; 05-11-2021 at 07:05 AM.
 
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Old 05-11-2021, 08:27 AM   #24
gouttegd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GazL View Post
Did the GPU hang issues some folks were having with 5.10 ever get fixed?
For me, not in the 5.10 branch. The latest release from that branch that I tested (5.10.33Ö I think) still suffered from that bug.

It does seem fixed in 5.12, though, so maybe at some point the fix will be backported to 5.10.

In any case, I donít mind if Slackware-15 ships with 5.10, I never use the default kernel for more than it takes to compile my own anyway.
 
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Old 05-11-2021, 08:35 AM   #25
Chuck56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GazL View Post
Did the GPU hang issues some folks were having with 5.10 ever get fixed? ...
No, not in my case. My desktop is running the amdgpu video module on an AMD A8-7600 Radeon R7, an APU with built-in GPU released in 2014. Both 5.10.x & 5.11.x hung on resume from suspend often requiring a hard reset. Occasionally I would see garbled video while using the desktop requiring a reboot. Now with 5.12.x resume from suspend & video is working reliably again.

A 7 year old APU is probably low on the priority lists for the various kernel/module/GUI maintainers. I'm glad it's working again without failing back to 5.9.x or earlier!
 
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Old 05-12-2021, 06:52 AM   #26
marav
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Accoridng to Greg Kroah-Hartman's blog

Code:
Hierarchy of what kernel to use, from best solution to worst:

- Supported kernel from your favorite Linux distribution
- Latest stable release
- Latest LTS release
- Older LTS release that is still being maintained
http://kroah.com/log/blog/2018/08/24...-should-i-use/

So, if the kernel provided by the distribution doesn't suit the needs, just switch to the latest stable
 
Old 05-12-2021, 11:01 AM   #27
LuckyCyborg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marav View Post
Accoridng to Greg Kroah-Hartman's blog

Code:
Hierarchy of what kernel to use, from best solution to worst:

- Supported kernel from your favorite Linux distribution
- Latest stable release
- Latest LTS release
- Older LTS release that is still being maintained
http://kroah.com/log/blog/2018/08/24...-should-i-use/

So, if the kernel provided by the distribution doesn't suit the needs, just switch to the latest stable
Yeah, but Mr. Kroah-Hartman talks about the first choice being the kernel provided by distribution, because the big distributions patches heavily the kernel source, then probably it's the most appropriate way to have a kernel according with the distribution vision. You shouldn't believe me, just look in this .src.rpm for example:

https://download.opensuse.org/source....0-2.1.src.rpm

Scary patching like this happens also on Ubuntu or Fedora. And let's do not talk about RHEL's custom kernels... They are on their own league.

However, the Slackware ships kernels with the unmodified source, and we use standard kernels as shipped by kernel.org, only that they are packaged by our BDFL for us.

That's WHY I believe that the first option has no real meaning for Slackware, and in fact we are on the fourth (and worst) option: whatever LTS kernel happened to be released 5 years ago and it's still maintained.

This happened before, and will happen again.

Last edited by LuckyCyborg; 05-12-2021 at 11:15 AM.
 
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Old 05-12-2021, 11:21 AM   #28
marav
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I agree. Because, in any case, I compile my own lastest stable

But
Mr. K-Hartman says :"As always, the opinions written here are my own, I speak for no one but myself."
So everyone is free to think differently

Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyCyborg View Post
That's WHY I believe that the first option has no real meaning for Slackware
The first option means that if you do not have the knowledge to compile your own kernel, you have the insurance that the kernel that came with the distribution has been validated by someone who have the expertise (in the case: PV) and is running fine (no matter if it's a vanilla one or not)

Last edited by marav; 05-12-2021 at 11:50 AM.
 
Old 05-12-2021, 12:33 PM   #29
bassmadrigal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marav View Post
Accoridng to Greg Kroah-Hartman's blog

Code:
Hierarchy of what kernel to use, from best solution to worst:

- Supported kernel from your favorite Linux distribution
- Latest stable release
- Latest LTS release
- Older LTS release that is still being maintained
http://kroah.com/log/blog/2018/08/24...-should-i-use/

So, if the kernel provided by the distribution doesn't suit the needs, just switch to the latest stable
GKH also believes you should build the kernel in your home directory (Ch 3 in his "Linux Kernel in a Nutshell" book).

Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyCyborg View Post
Yeah, but Mr. Kroah-Hartman talks about the first choice being the kernel provided by distribution, because the big distributions patches heavily the kernel source, then probably it's the most appropriate way to have a kernel according with the distribution vision.
In that blog posts, he specifically states:

Quote:
Just because I did not list your favorite distro here does not mean its kernel is not good. Look on the web site for the distro and make sure that the kernel package is constantly updated with the latest security patches, and all should be well.
The 4.4 kernel in 14.2 is "constantly updated with the latest security patches" (as will whatever kernel is released for 15.0), so there should be no issue continuing to use the kernel provided by Slackware and still following GKH's advice.
 
Old 05-12-2021, 06:41 PM   #30
andrew.46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STDOUBT View Post
Same hardware here for the past 10 years.
That is pretty epic! Is that good luck, good management or a combination of the two?
 
  


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