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Old 05-09-2021, 10:11 AM   #1
1337_powerslacker
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5.10 LTS to be maintained until 2026


I came across this article, and thought it interesting enough to share.

What I find particularly reassuring about this tidbit of news is that we will have the assurance of having only one kernel (5.10) to deal with.

Happy Slacking, y'all!
 
Old 05-09-2021, 10:17 AM   #2
marav
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Yes !
I mentioned it here:

https://www.linuxquestions.org/quest...ml#post6249291
 
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Old 05-09-2021, 11:21 AM   #3
LuckyCyborg
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Does no matter, if you are use your computer at home...

Any LTS kernel becomes obsolete in no more than one year, for any home user.

Last edited by LuckyCyborg; 05-09-2021 at 11:22 AM.
 
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Old 05-09-2021, 11:33 AM   #4
philanc
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyCyborg View Post
Any LTS kernel becomes obsolete in no more than one year, for any home user.
What do you mean by that? Do you assume that every home user adds new unsupported hardware to their PC at least once per year?
 
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Old 05-09-2021, 11:42 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philanc View Post
What do you mean by that? Do you assume that every home user adds new unsupported hardware to their PC at least once per year?
Not only that any user adds new hardware to their own PC at least on an annual base, even if this means just a new WiFI USB stick, BUT also the hardware drivers evolves so much in a single year that to get the best performances from you own PC, you should go to a newer kernel - a much newer kernel.

For example, and just as example: my older than dirt Dell Radeon R5 240 graphics card got functional UVD (for VDPAU) on the AMDGPU driver only recently. And, still today there's room for VCE and power management.

So, even today I have to choose between having functional either OpenCL or VCE.

Last edited by LuckyCyborg; 05-09-2021 at 11:54 AM.
 
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Old 05-09-2021, 11:57 AM   #6
teoberi
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So in the end support was found for 5.10.
And so we got rid of a problem for Slackware 15!
 
Old 05-09-2021, 12:30 PM   #7
karlmag
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyCyborg View Post
Does no matter, if you are use your computer at home...

Any LTS kernel becomes obsolete in no more than one year, for any home user.

That is a rather bold claim I would say...



Quote:
Originally Posted by philanc View Post
What do you mean by that? Do you assume that every home user adds new unsupported hardware to their PC at least once per year?
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyCyborg View Post
Not only that any user adds new hardware to their own PC at least on an annual base, even if this means just a new WiFI USB stick, BUT also the hardware drivers evolves so much in a single year that to get the best performances from you own PC, you should go to a newer kernel - a much newer kernel.

For example, and just as example: my older than dirt Dell Radeon R5 240 graphics card got functional UVD (for VDPAU) on the AMDGPU driver only recently. And, still today there's room for VCE and power management.

So, even today I have to choose between having functional either OpenCL or VCE.

This is still a bold claim.

If you had said that this is true for *some* users, I would not contest that.
I guess defining who these "users" are first could be helpful too. Computer users? Linux users? Slackware users?
For some spesific, fairly limited group of users the chance of your statement being true would likely be higher than on average of a much bigger group. But a full generalization? Nah, not likely at all.

I will agree that the statistical chance of adding some newer hardware that doesn't work with an older kernel will increase over time, but it happens way less than it used to do, and it also seems to have a higher chance of failure with some specific types of hardware (graphics cards and some network cards (especially wifi) comes to mind). Also, it would be likely with new types of technologies (think e.g NVME).

In my experience a few people upgrade and change up their setups "all the time", while most people just leave things alone and only upgrade something if they really have to (typically bigger disk or some component actually failed).
My primary rig is essentially unchanged since it was new. About 4 years or so ago now.
Ran 14.2 on it without any particular problems for a couple of years, and -current after that. I will say the graphics drivers (amdgpu) has gotten better over time, but it still served my needs also with 14.2.
I intend to put an extra disk (regular spinning sata disk) into it in the not too distant future, but I don't forsee any particular problems doing so.

Of course, other people's needs may be different than mine, but yeah, I don't think things change that much or often for most people.

Thanks
--
KarlMag
 
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Old 05-09-2021, 01:03 PM   #8
blancamolinos
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It is not necessary to update the pc so that the passage of time goes against the LTS kernel. All you have to do is buy a new laptop.

On the other hand, for a server, where normally nothing is changed during its useful life, the LTS kernel does make a lot of sense.

Last edited by blancamolinos; 05-09-2021 at 01:06 PM.
 
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Old 05-09-2021, 01:47 PM   #9
Didier Spaier
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What's the fuss? install both a LTS kernel and the latest stable and be happy. Easy enough to do at the user and distribution levels. I will upgrade from 5.4.x to 5.10.y the generic kernel for Slint and also provide a more recent one. No fuss, no muss, should accomodate most hardware contexts and use cases. Else, users can just rebuild their kernel with other options

Last edited by Didier Spaier; 05-09-2021 at 01:50 PM.
 
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Old 05-09-2021, 02:04 PM   #10
bassmadrigal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyCyborg View Post
Not only that any user adds new hardware to their own PC at least on an annual base, even if this means just a new WiFI USB stick,
Wait, seriously? You think most people are upgrading their components in their systems at least annually? Even me, in the land of plenty (as you so frequently remind me), rarely upgrade components that need a new kernel. Nothing in my computer needs a kernel beyond 4.13. About the only thing I'm adding annually (if that) is new storage as my media server is continually growing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyCyborg View Post
BUT also the hardware drivers evolves so much in a single year that to get the best performances from you own PC, you should go to a newer kernel - a much newer kernel.

For example, and just as example: my older than dirt Dell Radeon R5 240 graphics card got functional UVD (for VDPAU) on the AMDGPU driver only recently. And, still today there's room for VCE and power management.

So, even today I have to choose between having functional either OpenCL or VCE.
Yes, new kernels do provide new features, but how many users are going to utilize those new features? Or even care about them? Or even know about them? The last "interesting" thing I found in a kernel was with the 5.6 kernel when they added WireGuard. I don't even use WireGuard yet (too lazy to change my VPN scripts), but I was excited it was brought into the kernel.

I'm sure there have been many improvements in the kernel since my system was fully supported in the 4.13 kernel, but I haven't noticed any difference, even though I'm running a 5.10 kernel now. My HTPC is happily chugging away on a 4.19 kernel and it won't see an update until 15.0 is released. Once on 15.0, it will stay on the kernel version 15.0 is released with until 15.1/16.0 is out and I upgrade it to that.

As long as your hardware is supported and you don't see anything major that was added by newer kernels, there's no point in upgrading to the latest kernel version other than personal desire.
 
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Old 05-09-2021, 02:18 PM   #11
kingbeowulf
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When Slackware 15.0 goes RC1/stable, it'll be nice to have the latest stable kernel in /extra a a convenience for less skilled Slackware users who do not want to build their own kernel. Having just switched from nvidia to amdgpu (RX 590 and RX 5700 XT), 5.10.x is fine, but there are a few performance improvements in 5.11-.12, with 5.12-13 required for the newer AMD RX 6000s series (assuming cryptocurrency crashes to that GPUs get affordable again - that may not happen until Slackware 16!).
 
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Old 05-09-2021, 02:44 PM   #12
kingbeowulf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bassmadrigal View Post
Wait, seriously? You think most people are upgrading their components in their systems at least annually? Even me, in the land of plenty (as you so frequently remind me), rarely upgrade components that need a new kernel. Nothing in my computer needs a kernel beyond 4.13. About the only thing I'm adding annually (if that) is new storage as my media server is continually growing.
True, in part. I just did my BIG upgrades after 5-6 yrs to Ryzen CPUs, about a year ago, just for pending 15.0, and 5.4+ was definitely required and 5.10 is definitely better. 5.12 would be better still. The Lenovo T510 (laptop) and M91p SFF (hobby server) perfectly happy with kernel 5.10.x. There are plenty of new hardware toys out there. Who are you, or any of us, to say "Sorry, you can't install that until Slackware upgrades to a new LTS kernel. Now, run along to Ubuntu."
Quote:
Originally Posted by bassmadrigal View Post
Yes, new kernels do provide new features, but how many users are going to utilize those new features? Or even care about them? Or even know about them?
AMDGPU. May be frivolous to you, but computer games are BIG; and I like my games. I like it even better on a full opensource GPU driver stack. I'd rather not boot back into Windows just to clear 60 fps on my 4K UHD and 1440p IPS gaming monitors. If GPU prices drop, I'm all in for a new AMD RX 6000s series to replace the year+ old RX 5700 XT and that means kernel 5.12 or 5.13+.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bassmadrigal View Post
As long as your hardware is supported and you don't see anything major that was added by newer kernels, there's no point in upgrading to the latest kernel version other than personal desire.
You are forgetting one important aspect or hardware support: hardware bug fixes and/or performance improvements. These do not always get backported to older, even LTS, kernels.
 
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Old 05-09-2021, 03:51 PM   #13
LuckyCyborg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bassmadrigal View Post
Wait, seriously? You think most people are upgrading their components in their systems at least annually? Even me, in the land of plenty (as you so frequently remind me), rarely upgrade components that need a new kernel. Nothing in my computer needs a kernel beyond 4.13. About the only thing I'm adding annually (if that) is new storage as my media server is continually growing.
However is truly disappointing for me.

My Radeon R5 240 is still only partially supported, my GeForce 605 at best is slow like the Holly Snail (if not just freeze) and anyway The Blob will die at the end of 2022, and let's forget about two WiFI USB sticks which does not work at all even with the latest kernel.

I will stop here to lament with my various hardware issues which looks like that probably will never be fixed officially on Slackware 15, even on AD 2030.

Please remember me, WHY I should be happy that that LTS is supported for the next six years?

Last edited by LuckyCyborg; 05-09-2021 at 04:14 PM.
 
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Old 05-09-2021, 05:51 PM   #14
bassmadrigal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingbeowulf View Post
True, in part. I just did my BIG upgrades after 5-6 yrs to Ryzen CPUs, about a year ago, just for pending 15.0, and 5.4+ was definitely required and 5.10 is definitely better. 5.12 would be better still. The Lenovo T510 (laptop) and M91p SFF (hobby server) perfectly happy with kernel 5.10.x. There are plenty of new hardware toys out there. Who are you, or any of us, to say "Sorry, you can't install that until Slackware upgrades to a new LTS kernel. Now, run along to Ubuntu."
AMDGPU. May be frivolous to you, but computer games are BIG; and I like my games. I like it even better on a full opensource GPU driver stack. I'd rather not boot back into Windows just to clear 60 fps on my 4K UHD and 1440p IPS gaming monitors. If GPU prices drop, I'm all in for a new AMD RX 6000s series to replace the year+ old RX 5700 XT and that means kernel 5.12 or 5.13+.
You are forgetting one important aspect or hardware support: hardware bug fixes and/or performance improvements. These do not always get backported to older, even LTS, kernels.
I'm not dismissing that users can and do benefit from newer kernels. I'm sure that my AMD GPU has benefited from the improvements of the amdgpu dc that was added with the 4.15 kernel an subsequent improvements to the amdgpu driver since then.

But, I'll echo my previous statement: how many users are going to utilize those new features? Or even care about them? Or even know about them?

There are many new features that are added to kernels and most are likely unnoticed by the masses. Yes, occasionally there will be massive ones that people will notice, like the amdgpu dc, but many users are perfectly content with the kernel included with their distro.

The reality is there's nothing wrong with people tracking the latest kernels. Lots of Slackware users do this. (This is the "personal desire" that I mentioned in my previous post.) However, there's also a lot of people who don't want to worry about the kernel. For those people, LTS kernels are nice... and now that 5.10 has 6 years of support, Pat can continue to provide updates for 15.0 (if it is released with that kernel version) minimizing the chance that people need to worry about updates breaking something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyCyborg View Post
Please remember me, WHY I should be happy that that LTS is supported for the next six years?
That isn't for you. If you aren't using LTS kernels, then having 6 years of support is of no consequence. But there are hundreds of millions of systems (probably even into the billions) that are using LTS kernels (like Android phones) and having 6 years of support provided by the kernel developers is a good thing.
 
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Old 05-10-2021, 03:06 AM   #15
lovemeslk
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As you may think LuckyCyborg. LTS kernel will always see benefits of the latest . As you can see from the just the inclusion of the 5.10.
Fact is these newer kernels if you listen to what Linus says. Are actually a stable branch that are being developed.
you can see many patches from the 5.10 that have gone into the 4.4.261.
Such as ryzen patches and updated drivers for newer firmware.
Long term means that.
The way you put it. Oh long term it just sit there we do nothing.
https://cdn.kernel.org/pub/linux/ker...ngeLog-4.4.268

Last edited by lovemeslk; 05-10-2021 at 03:32 AM. Reason: change log
 
  


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