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Old 05-17-2019, 04:44 PM   #616
mishehu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerard Lally View Post
But the supreme irony here, as we all know, is that, when it comes to KDE, bugs are multiplied tenfold in the newer software. It's not as though they're leaving "outdated and potentially insecure" software behind and replacing it with more secure, newer software. They seem to be fixing just as many bugs in the newer Plasma. It's a never-ending merry-go-round with KDE. Fix one bug, introduce a new feature and all of a sudden they have two more bugs to fix.

The whole security thing is done to death anyway. Beat the desktop into shape, reduce the showstopper bug count to near zero, and put KDE in low maintenance mode for 5 years. When it comes to security Linux has far bigger concerns than the desktop. Introducing docker and systemd, for example, when they were barely out of beta, if indeed they were out of beta, was a recipe for security leaks much more serious than anything a desktop is going to leak. Even the so-called enterprise distributions have this suicidal wish to leave stability behind as soon as it has been achieved and move on to the next daredevil stunt.
I'm not sure what you're getting at. You're describing pretty much EVERY software development cycle out there. It seems like an odd expectation to have to expect the same feverish development pace once the current cycle has matured and stabilized. Any time you move the pegs in ANY software you risk regressions as well as the introduction of new bugs. The alternative is to stagnate and never change.

Personally, I like the change that has gone into kde5/plasma5.
 
Old 05-17-2019, 05:00 PM   #617
Gerard Lally
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mishehu View Post
It seems like an odd expectation to have to expect the same feverish development pace once the current cycle has matured and stabilized.
Did I say that? Really? Putting KDE4 into low-maintenance mode for 5 or more years is not demanding a feverish development pace.

4 should not have been abandoned as soon as it reached a satisfactory state. If KDE lose all interest in their desktop as soon as that desktop is as good as they can get it then they shouldn't be surprised if people turn their backs on anything they come out with in future. Why on earth would anybody trust them? Why be a guinea pig for their software development cycle when you know that as soon as the goal of a perfect desktop environment has been reached they're going to completely abandon it and start all over again?
 
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Old 05-17-2019, 05:50 PM   #618
bassmadrigal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerard Lally View Post
But the supreme irony here, as we all know, is that, when it comes to KDE, bugs are multiplied tenfold in the newer software. It's not as though they're leaving "outdated and potentially insecure" software behind and replacing it with more secure, newer software. They seem to be fixing just as many bugs in the newer Plasma. It's a never-ending merry-go-round with KDE. Fix one bug, introduce a new feature and all of a sudden they have two more bugs to fix.
But what should KDE devs expect to do when they find their development kit is EOL? Do they keep using it and developing against a kit that has no future? Should software developers keep developing for Windows XP since their software worked great on it, even though Microsoft has no plans to put out any updates for any bugs in Windows XP?

Yes, introducing software on a new development kit is going to introduce bugs or not contain all the features previous versions have. We can see this anywhere, whether software or hardware, both in computers and outside of them (how many times is it recommended to skip new revisions of cars to let them figure out the issues and fix them the next model year?).

QT4 is dead. There isn't going to be any more updates for it and there haven't been any for 4 years. How long should KDE devs keep developing against a dead toolkit before it's ok for them to move on?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerard Lally View Post
4 should not have been abandoned as soon as it reached a satisfactory state. If KDE lose all interest in their desktop as soon as that desktop is as good as they can get it then they shouldn't be surprised if people turn their backs on anything they come out with in future. Why on earth would anybody trust them? Why be a guinea pig for their software development cycle when you know that as soon as the goal of a perfect desktop environment has been reached they're going to completely abandon it and start all over again?
So, they should then split their development teams to do both at the same time? Even though the KDE4 team would be developing against dead software? Do they have the manning for that? They are an open-source company and may not have resources to keep two versions developing side-by-side.

My writing is just from a technical standpoint. Right now, I don't really have a horse in the race, because I haven't used KDE5 and have no idea how it compares to KDE4... so I'm not writing this as some KDE fanboy and I hope it isn't coming across that way.
 
Old 05-17-2019, 06:29 PM   #619
hitest
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bassmadrigal View Post
Right now, I don't really have a horse in the race, because I haven't used KDE5 and have no idea how it compares to KDE4... so I'm not writing this as some KDE fanboy and I hope it isn't coming across that way.
You don't sound like a fanboy at all. You've presented logical points. I have used both KDE4 and KDE5 and there is a performance improvement in KDE5. I prefer KDE-plasma compared to KDE4.
 
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Old 05-17-2019, 11:09 PM   #620
enorbet
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Two Cliches that got to be cliches by being generally, if also ironically, true

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grad School Advice
Publish early and often
Quote:
Originally Posted by Some Software Geek
Software is either beta or obsolete... or both
It may be a pita for a time but generally getting some new things down and then moving on to newer things is a competitive necessity.
 
Old 05-17-2019, 11:22 PM   #621
LuckyCyborg
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You people discuss about the obsolescence of KDE4 compared with the modern Plasma5...

I am not a plasma-hater, rather I ignored it in the past, and right now I have an enough positive opinion about it, to invent my compressed-usr thing to do a recommended/full install with Plasma5 in a whooping 5GB space on hard drive. Also, being all honestly, this little invention improve the performances, specially when the drive is rather older and relative slow.

However, I have a question for you: we know that KDE4 is already abandoned (and after some, right on "buried"), but Plasma5 how much live still have until it will be shoot in head like a wounded horse?

I ask that because I read that the nex major version of Qt, the Qt6 will be released in 2020, and 2020 will be right on the next year from now.

Following your own arguments about the innocent KDE devs and that Qt is all at fault, there will follow the abandon of Plasma5 and starting from scratch the next KDE iteration, which probably we will name it with love: Plasma6 and we will enjoy all its brand new features and bugs.

Still, what will happen then with Plasma5?

Last edited by LuckyCyborg; 05-17-2019 at 11:32 PM.
 
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Old 05-17-2019, 11:36 PM   #622
rkelsen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyCyborg View Post
Still, what will happen then with Plasma5?
Probably the same thing that happened with KDE 3, KDE 2 and KDE 1 before it.
 
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Old 05-18-2019, 01:46 AM   #623
Alien Bob
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyCyborg View Post
You people discuss about the obsolescence of KDE4 compared with the modern Plasma5...

I am not a plasma-hater, rather I ignored it in the past, and right now I have an enough positive opinion about it, to invent my compressed-usr thing to do a recommended/full install with Plasma5 in a whooping 5GB space on hard drive. Also, being all honestly, this little invention improve the performances, specially when the drive is rather older and relative slow.

However, I have a question for you: we know that KDE4 is already abandoned (and after some, right on "buried"), but Plasma5 how much live still have until it will be shoot in head like a wounded horse?

I ask that because I read that the nex major version of Qt, the Qt6 will be released in 2020, and 2020 will be right on the next year from now.

Following your own arguments about the innocent KDE devs and that Qt is all at fault, there will follow the abandon of Plasma5 and starting from scratch the next KDE iteration, which probably we will name it with love: Plasma6 and we will enjoy all its brand new features and bugs.

Still, what will happen then with Plasma5?
I think (and hope) that what the developers did for Plasma5, will make future transition to the next major release of Qt a lot less invasive.
What they did was build a software layer between the desktop & applications and the GUI toolkit (Qt). They called that the KDE Frameworks and every KDE application developer was instructed to port his KDE4 code to KDE Frameworks. The result is that KDE desktop & applications have no strict dependency on the Qt API, Instead, they all interface with the Frameworks API which is stable. The Frameworks themselves need to make that translation of future Qt functionality to a Frameworks API.

As a result, the KDE software landscape is no longer this monolithic bulk of software that was KDE4 and earlier. Instead, KDE now has a modular approach in their software development which will in future become even more granular with respect to its applications. These discussions are ongoing right now in the developer mailing lists.

I think that KDE's development will become more evolutionary instead of revolutionary. Big leaps will still be made (compare for instance the functionality of Plasma 5.12 to
the upcoming 5.16 and you see that) but those will happen to just parts of the whole and no longer to the whole.
As a user of KDE Plasma that would mean less pain after upgrades.
 
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