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Old 10-23-2018, 04:18 PM   #16
ChuangTzu
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Fungal, I agree, I think Debian has no plans to support anything but systemd, and they know by not maintaining the sysv packages that it will be too much work for the derivatives, hence the end of those derivatives.
 
Old 10-24-2018, 02:59 AM   #17
FungalNet
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The problem is not sysvinit, as I see it. It is not that hard to adopt s6, runit, OpenRC, or another init to any linux. The problems debian forks are facing is with a large number of software groups that rely on systemd's parts to operate, especially desktops related to gnome/freedesktop stuff. Many of those software pieces do not even have such dependencies upstream, they are added by debian. One may ask for an example just to go back and find a believable excuse of why that was done.
 
Old 10-24-2018, 09:56 AM   #18
jens
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FungalNet View Post
The problem is not sysvinit, as I see it. It is not that hard to adopt s6, runit, OpenRC, or another init to any linux. The problems debian forks are facing is with a large number of software groups that rely on systemd's parts to operate, especially desktops related to gnome/freedesktop stuff. Many of those software pieces do not even have such dependencies upstream, they are added by debian. One may ask for an example just to go back and find a believable excuse of why that was done.
The last SysV package had to be downgraded for (adding) +60 bugs resulted from upstream, not Debian.
While the whole init debacle might always be toxic on any -dev list in debian, the one posted above did spark enough attention to _do_ something about the state of SysV. Even the devuan folks (finally) reached out (and Ian Jackson is willing to "mentor/sponsor" them).

For a less toxic discussion, join: http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/ma...init-diversity

Last edited by jens; 10-24-2018 at 10:41 AM.
 
Old 10-24-2018, 11:39 AM   #19
FungalNet
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@jens You may be right, I am not following sysvinit as closely, I just happened to notice that last week there was an upgrade and I happened to read an older article saying how sysvinit had been abandoned, the same day.

What I have gotten tired over the years, and I was a faithful debian user for long, is that every time a discussion about debian and its lack of freedom to alter the init system begins, the focus shifts in something "unrelated"; how bad sysvinit is. Currently there are several init systems in development and people using them are pretty happy about them. Especially when the resources taken by them are less than a third of what systemd uses. But can you implement one of them on debian? The answer is Refracta runs fine with OpenRC and eudev, unofficially so does Devuan.

Returning to the original question, just exchange Devuan repositories with your Debian repositories and follow the brief instructions on how to install Openrc.
 
Old 10-24-2018, 11:50 AM   #20
nodir
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FungalNet View Post
What I have gotten tired over the years, and I was a faithful debian user for long, is that every time a discussion about debian and its lack of freedom to alter the init system begins, the focus shifts in something "unrelated"; how bad sysvinit is. Currently there are several init systems in development and people using them are pretty happy about them. Especially when the resources taken by them are less than a third of what systemd uses. But can you implement one of them on debian? The answer is Refracta runs fine with OpenRC and eudev, unofficially so does Devuan.

Returning to the original question, just exchange Devuan repositories with your Debian repositories and follow the brief instructions on how to install Openrc.
Same here, i was a very faitfhul debian user and very happy with it.

Another note: isn't it strange that projects that small (compared with debian) are able to offer different init systems and eudev, but debian is not ?
And that, choice regarding the init system, would have been a good approach. They don't seem to be willing to give such, and so i had to give up on them.

Last edited by nodir; 10-24-2018 at 11:53 AM.
 
Old 10-31-2018, 11:00 AM   #21
jens
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isn't it strange that projects that small (compared with debian) are able to offer different init systems and eudev, but debian is not ?
No. It's the other way around (more packages => more breakage).

Quote:
Originally Posted by nodir View Post
And that, choice regarding the init system, would have been a good approach. They don't seem to be willing to give such, and so i had to give up on them.
It's not about willing but rather having the people to keep maintaining it.
While this won't change anything in Buster (note: stable is just one part of Debian), I personally do welcome the Devuan folks to take ownership of those packages inside Debian (after joining, they could even make an official "port"(if necessery) that does fulfill the requirements for stable).

Last edited by jens; 10-31-2018 at 11:02 AM.
 
Old 10-31-2018, 01:31 PM   #22
nodir
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devuan has to deal with just as much packages as debian. as far i can tell.

And among those few thousands of developpers and maintainers there are none who are willing. "not having the people". whew.

This way or that way i for one am not willing to wait for it to happen (or rather: not happen). I just juse different distros.

Last edited by nodir; 10-31-2018 at 01:32 PM.
 
Old 10-31-2018, 05:34 PM   #23
FungalNet
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Originally Posted by jens View Post
It's not about willing but rather having the people to keep maintaining it.
Seriously, can you really hold a serious face while saying these words? This is the reason openrc and sysvinit are not (or not going to be) in the debian repositories?
Devuan, antix, and mx, have to be responsible for all debian pkgs (pretty much, except for a couple) and all of their own. If virtualbox doesn't run in antix it is antix's problem, even though it came from debian.

Last edited by FungalNet; 10-31-2018 at 08:37 PM.
 
Old 10-31-2018, 08:35 PM   #24
jens
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Seriously, can you real hold a serious face while saying these words?
Yes.
 
Old 10-31-2018, 08:40 PM   #25
jens
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PS:
@ both nodir and FungalNet, please read (and/or join) http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/pi...er/thread.html
Those involved do care.

Last edited by jens; 10-31-2018 at 08:45 PM.
 
Old 11-01-2018, 04:01 AM   #26
nodir
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iirc that is mainly about keeping sysv alive. There are more init systems to choose from.
I can't see how that relates to what i said, and how it shows that (at least until now), among all those thousands, there is no real will (and you said: it is a question of manpower).
All this was discussed back and forth during the original mailing list discussion. No need to be surprised now. There has been plenty of time to get this sorted.

As of now it is like it is.
People who want a different init system are way better of using a different distribution.
I really wish them the best in succeeding. But even if: trust is something you gain hard and lose quickly.

Last edited by nodir; 11-01-2018 at 04:09 AM.
 
Old 11-03-2018, 10:37 AM   #27
jens
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nodir View Post
...
among all those thousands, there is no real will (and you said: it is a question of manpower).
...
That's not how it works.
SysV only had ONE active maintainer (so yes, it's all about manpower).

Debian isn't Red Hat.
You only get as many people for a certain package as are willing/interested and capable to maintain/support that package.

Last edited by jens; 11-03-2018 at 10:46 AM.
 
Old 11-03-2018, 12:49 PM   #28
FungalNet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jens View Post
You only get as many people for a certain package as are willing/interested and capable to maintain/support that package.
"That's not how it works."

Please don't take it the wrong way, I am not trying to argue with you or insult you. As far as I know this is not as simple as you are making it sound. Among those thousands of debian maintainers there isn't someone willing to step up and do this, for a good reason. To become one of the thousand you have to work hard for years and obey and be subservient to the debian "elite". If then you have proven yourself, you are admitted to the hall of fame and glory. Taking over sysv and maintain it, might be political suicide within debian, I think. You can introduce a new game of backgammon, or work on the graphical aesthetics of the weather gui, but maintaining a package called "systemd should die" is not a good career move, or an acceptable one. And yes, being a debian maintainer for whatever is out there (10s of thousands) will get you a better job and higher pay grade. Creating a distro from scratch, from gentoo or LFS, will get you nowhere.

I hope we are saying the same thing, just emphasizing different details.

Arch uses systemd. Learn to do arch packaging and upload your package to AUR tomorrow and you are officially part of the arch family. Look at aur:yaourtix for example. Someone cloned yaourt and added support for downloading and building artix packages from the artix git. Try something like this in Debian and I may not live long enough to see it happen.
 
Old 11-03-2018, 09:14 PM   #29
nodir
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jens View Post
That's not how it works.
SysV only had ONE active maintainer (so yes, it's all about manpower).

Debian isn't Red Hat.
You only get as many people for a certain package as are willing/interested and capable to maintain/support that package.
You slowly say the exact same thing i said in the first place.
"willing/interested"
That was all i said. You disagreed, and now say it yourself. Too funny.

And if no one in Debian is capable to package an init system which that distro used for quite some years ... well, that sure would be something to think about. And more than just a bit.

Last edited by nodir; 11-03-2018 at 09:50 PM.
 
  


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