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Old 01-16-2020, 04:08 PM   #16
rhimbo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatmac View Post
I'd say go with Linux, forget MS, Apple is overpriced FreeBSD with Aqua Desktop, (if I remember right).

I've been using Linux since 1999 without any problems, so I would think that you would be OK once you get to know it.

Desktop Environments - KDE, GNOME, XFCE, etc. (I recommend XFCE).

Window Managers - IceWM, Fluxbox, i3wm, etc. (I use Fluxbox).
Thank you, fatmac, for the info... That sounds promising. Yes, Apple is overpriced. Not only that, but I'm sick and tired of their arrogance and intentional surreptitious deception, lock-in, declining quality, etc. I could justify it when their laptops lasted over 10 years (as mine did).

And, just to rant a bit... why doesn't Apple have a touch screen on iMacs or laptops...? Because they want you to buy 3 devices: iMac, iPad, iPhone... and they think they're the greatest gift to the galaxy so... well, why wouldn't everyone do so...?! I'm just tired of it.
 
Old 01-16-2020, 04:11 PM   #17
rhimbo
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Originally Posted by boughtonp View Post
Your post appears to contain lots of reasons for why you should stick with Mac OS, and none for why you shouldn't?

Well, you're correct. But the motivation for my post was not to make a statement or to argue but to say "this is my perspective today; can someone convince me otherwise." ;-)

The truth is, I would love to get off Apple and M$ forever... forever...!
 
Old 01-16-2020, 04:13 PM   #18
rhimbo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
Don't be nasty, Geist! Linux is a toy (among other things). A toy is something that gives you pleasure just from fooling around with it. And the more experience you have of fooling around with it, the more fun it becomes. I can play with Linux for hours!

@rhimbo: a desktop is just a graphical user interface. Every desktop includes a window manager but the big desktops like gnome include a lot more. A window manager by itself gives you movable windows and usually a desktop menu but that's all. It's fast and sleek but pretty spartan and you usually have to configure it by hand.

If you want icons, drag and drop, graphical configuration tools and so on, you need a desktop environment or DE. Like gnome, KDE or xfce.
Ok, it was late at night and I wasn't thinking. Yes, I'm embarrassed. I was thinking of the old days when I used to write Xlib and Xt code and there was not the same clear delineation between desktops and window managers. Sorry.... I know you're all rolling your eyes and snorting right now... ;-)
 
Old 01-16-2020, 04:18 PM   #19
Geist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
Don't be nasty, Geist! Linux is a toy (among other things). A toy is something that gives you pleasure just from fooling around with it. And the more experience you have of fooling around with it, the more fun it becomes. I can play with Linux for hours!
Well, I kept the flame low at least :P

But yeah, anything can be a toy like that, a (CNC) milling machine can be a toy, but it's also a backbone of the industry, calling it a toy there is probably still with some reverence, while the Linux thing, at least to me, came across more dismissive.

Especially in conjunction with Windows as a software (the OS and its first party tools that come with it) and Apple hardware.
The former is, ...I don't want to say Fisher Price tier because I think FP actually cares about its products, at least I've heard really good things about its servicing, but Windows 8, Windows XP with it's babby theme.
Apple infantilizing the customer because only daddy is allowed to repair it and baby can only play with it and if baby tries to then baby gets its hide tanned.

Furthermore the flexibility of Linux desktops without any budget cuts on the 'admin stuff' just shines. There are some certain flagship/killer app weaknesses in multimedia like video editing and so forth, but that's like grumbling at driver troubles, not the fault of Linux that some vendors simply don't want to cater to it, because then the unfortunate people have to wallow in the pits of Microsoft and Apple, but I guess at least the Apple one looks more sleek.

Uninformed hubris like this rubs me the wrong way. I'm a pleb, really, I'm not a system admin, and while I can program and have worked on some not just hobby projects, I'm still low tier, not a programming genius,fatcat or pioneer, yet with Linux I feel like I am an elder god compared to my Windows days at least.

OP is trolling themselves if they think Linux desktop is just a 'toy'.
Meanwhile I'm a superhero who wiggles like three fingers a few degrees and programs spring open in a dance of efficiency, might and even elegance sometimes.
(Can't deny the more crusty look of some things... programmer art and whatnot, but it's gotten better, a lot better. Even the gimps splash screen looks good these days)

The automation, comfort, the utter at home feeling of things being tuned by myself, for myself to create the best possible experience, even when I was a total noob, I still had an easy time making even my noob adjustments, will never generate anything than a scrounged up face and a backhand wave away at the notion of going back at this point in time.

*Especially* for the Linux desktop which has been a meme for a long, long time.
Even the, what was it, IBM superbowl ads or something from a trillion years ago showed how MS and co were getting a bit sweaty under the collar.
The year of the linux desktop is still a meme, but Windows is unironic and completely sincere HELL.
I recognize flagship software, I recognize 'gotta have this for my industry job' software arguments, but that's software, not the desktop, and nothing beats Linux there.

If it's a toy, then it's the toy of the pinnacle lifeform. The same level atoms and physics are the toy of some deity, dooming anyone who shuns it to a living nightmare.

I mean, imagine unironically using windows and only first party software, IE/Edge (or whatever its name is) MsPaint which they managed to kack up, Movie Maker? Nice knowing you since it's gone.
Can't do jack diddly without an immediate injection of third party software on Windows, and Apple hardware, well, I got actual buttons for my money on my mouse,which is an ancient Mx 518 or something, I can't even remember it's name but I have been keeping that poor sodden thing alive for probably over a decade maybe even two, it wants to die, but I keep respringing its microswitches.

But now I'm digressing a bit.

Lol Windows and Apple, BWA HA HA HA HAHAHAHA HAA

Last edited by Geist; 01-16-2020 at 04:43 PM. Reason: I accidentally a whole part of a sentence.
 
Old 01-16-2020, 05:01 PM   #20
rhimbo
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Registered: Dec 2004
Distribution: Ubuntu 19.04 on Lenova ThinkPad T440
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geist View Post
Well, I kept the flame low at least :P

But yeah, anything can be a toy like that, a (CNC) milling machine can be a toy, but it's also a backbone of the industry, calling it a toy there is probably still with some reverence, while the Linux thing, at least to me, came across more dismissive.

Especially in conjunction with Windows as a software (the OS and its first party tools that come with it) and Apple hardware.
The former is, ...I don't want to say Fisher Price tier because I think FP actually cares about its products, at least I've heard really good things about its servicing, but Windows 8, Windows XP with it's babby theme.
Apple infantilizing the customer because only daddy is allowed to repair it and baby can only play with it and if baby tries to then baby gets its hide tanned.

Furthermore the flexibility of Linux desktops without any budget cuts on the 'admin stuff' just shines. There are some certain flagship/killer app weaknesses in multimedia like video editing and so forth, but that's like grumbling at driver troubles, not the fault of Linux that some vendors simply don't want to cater to it, because then the unfortunate people have to wallow in the pits of Microsoft and Apple, but I guess at least the Apple one looks more sleek.

Uninformed hubris like this rubs me the wrong way. I'm a pleb, really, I'm not a system admin, and while I can program and have worked on some not just hobby projects, I'm still low tier, not a programming genius,fatcat or pioneer, yet with Linux I feel like I am an elder god compared to my Windows days at least.

OP is trolling themselves if they think Linux desktop is just a 'toy'.
Meanwhile I'm a superhero who wiggles like three fingers a few degrees and programs spring open in a dance of efficiency, might and even elegance sometimes.
(Can't deny the more crusty look of some things... programmer art and whatnot, but it's gotten better, a lot better. Even the gimps splash screen looks good these days)

The automation, comfort, the utter at home feeling of things being tuned by myself, for myself to create the best possible experience, even when I was a total noob, I still had an easy time making even my noob adjustments, will never generate anything than a scrounged up face and a backhand wave away at this point in time.

*Especially* for the Linux desktop which has been a meme for a long, long time.
Even the, what was it, IBM superbowl ads or something from a trillion years ago showed how MS and co were getting a bit sweaty under the collar.
The year of the linux desktop is still a meme, but Windows is unironic and completely sincere HELL.
I recognize flagship software, I recognize 'gotta have this for my industry job' software arguments, but that's software, not the desktop, and nothing beats Linux there.

If it's a toy, then it's the toy of the pinnacle lifeform. The same level atoms and physics are the toy of some deity, dooming anyone who shuns it to a living nightmare.

I mean, imagine unironically using windows and only first party software, IE/Edge (or whatever its name is) MsPaint which they managed to kack up, Movie Maker? Nice knowing you since it's gone.
Can't do jack diddly without an immediate injection of third party software on Windows, and Apple hardware, well, I got actual buttons for my money on my mouse,which is an ancient Mx 518 or something, I can't even remember it's name but I have been keeping that poor sodden thing alive for probably over a decade maybe even two, it wants to die, but I keep respringing its microswitches.

But now I'm digressing a bit.

Lol Windows and Apple, BWA HA HA HA HAHAHAHA HAA

Well, I would not say I was trolling. It was not my intention to denigrate Linux or offend anyone. Perhaps it was not the best choice of words. My intention was to highlight the difference between an environment that requires almost no "management" versus those that require more manual effort to keep it running and provide a platform to use professionally on a daily basis for general computing needs.

I acknowledged -- nay, even offered -- that I have been away from Linux for quite a while so no one need be offended by my statement. And, as I said, that is the reason for my post.

Moreover, I was referring to Linux on the desktop. Obviously it's better in the data center. And why wouldn't it be? It is standing on the shoulders of the giants who created Unix and variants.

I also said that I would love to ditch M$ and Apple as well. In addition to other reasons I mentioned, I hate the fact that Apple "integrates" (a polite euphemism) every component so you cannot service your own machine, cannot replace components, etc. on all their equipment... iMac, laptops, iPhone.

I do enjoy "playing with toys" when I have the time. But here is some context for you. When I'm spending 13 hours each week in-flight, not counting other transit time, and the boss says "shut the hell up and go 'cause the client is on the other side of the continent so that's where you're going..." I really have very little time, if any, to "play" or explore regardless of how much I might enjoy doing so under different circumstances.

And it's been years since I have had to do my own sysadmin on my desktop Sparc 1+ (back in the '90s when we had to do a fair amount of sysadmin on our own desktop workstations). And even then, I certainly would not consider myself to have been a real sysadmin. In fact, except for the actual sysadmins at the company, not many of us were really "good enough" at configuring NFS, volume management in Solaris, setting up networking, setting up security, account management after Sun introduced Solaris, etc. to guarantee that we could work unhindered. It was fine to "play" when you knew that you could just pick up the phone and call one of those sysadmin stud-factors who could fix any friggen problem; those guys were great.

Moreover, I've been away from it for a while. I spend my days reviewing architecture diagrams in boring meetings. I do lots of presentations for clueless executives. So, again, for context, there would be a ramp-up required for me to get to the point where I could troubleshoot configuration and sysadmin issues. That's why I said that I was hoping to find a combination of desktop, window manager, admin tools, etc. to minimize the manual effort required. Despite my interest, I just don't have much time to spend for my primary work platform.

As I said early on, I have been away from Linux for a while. But when I used it previously, it was no way near as "polished" with respect to utilities, configuration, management or general sysadmin as Mac OS. I never compared it to Windows. I only said that Outlook seemed to give more options for formatting mail messages than Thunderbird (but acknowledged that it was entirely possible that I didn't play with Thunderbird enough to give it a fair chance to impress me).

It's one thing to need to keep a system up and running because you're expected to be working 10 hours a day on it. It's another story entirely when you have the luxury of coming back to a problem at your leisure because your job doesn't depend on that system being up and running. And that's the main context and impetus for my original query.

And just for the record lest anyone thinks I'm denigrating Linux or the Linux (or Unix) community.... I am an advocate of "Unix." I hate M$ and Windows. I grew up with Unix starting freshmen year in college when we did our Lisp programming assignments on a PDP 11-70. I worked at Sun Microsystems for 15 years as a systems and application programmer.

I hate M$ and recently I hate Apple (although I've hated Steve Jobs for decades). I could tell you all lots of stories about very nitty gritty detail of things M$ did to break standards. I was working on low-level library development of the JDK at Sun and I was deposed by armies of attorneys when Sun sued M$. And what didn't even get much press was all the things M$ was doing beyond the Java world. But those stories are for another time.

So, back to the original impetus of my first post, I am looking for an environment, window manager, combination of tools (external disk configuration, backup, defragmentation, "office" utilities such as mail, etc.) that will enable me to work as productively as I can on my iMac without requiring a lot of explicit manual intervention. Many folks have replied here with great suggestions and pointers, and I will follow up on those.

But this post is really to disabuse anyone from thinking that my intention was to denigrate Linux or the community in general.

Anyway, thank you all for your suggestions. I appreciate it. I'll start exploring....
 
Old 01-16-2020, 06:15 PM   #21
boughtonp
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So in short your actual question is "I like Mac OS but not Apple, what distro is closest/easiest to get working to the same standard?"

And your key features are:
* Mail client like Apple Mail, with good search.
* An office suite that handles Microsoft's formats.
* A backup solution as effortless as Time Machine.
* A touch screen for signing documents with a real signature.
* The ability to update without being scared of breakages.

Right?
 
Old 01-16-2020, 06:26 PM   #22
vtel57
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Well, you have the mainline Linuxes: Debian, Slackware, RedHat, Mandriva, etc. These are all good distros. Some require more attention to install/run/maintain than others.

Then you have the popular Windows refugee distros: Ubuntu, Mint, etc. These are useful, kinda' pretty, and don't require much (if any) fumbling around under the hood. They're designed to appeal to users coming over from Windows.

Lastly, are tons of not-so-well-known distributions that are a combination of difficult, easy, pretty, not-so-pretty, etc.

You'll have to hunt around to find yourself a nice balance. Some are pretty damned polished these days, though.
 
Old 01-16-2020, 07:08 PM   #23
rhimbo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boughtonp View Post
So in short your actual question is "I like Mac OS but not Apple, what distro is closest/easiest to get working to the same standard?"

And your key features are:
* Mail client like Apple Mail, with good search.
* An office suite that handles Microsoft's formats.
* A backup solution as effortless as Time Machine.
* A touch screen for signing documents with a real signature.
* The ability to update without being scared of breakages.

Right?
Well put...! Thank you...!

Yes, I will try LibreOffice. I can easily find a plethora of laptops (Dell, Lenova either professional ThinkPad line or just Lenova consumer line, and others) with a nice touch screen. I presume Linux drivers have support for recognizing the touch screens and supporting all the things like Adobe Docusign, Adobe Acrobat Reader, etc...

With respect to sysadmin type stuff, when I said "manual work to config and keep the system running," I should have given this example: I would greatly prefer to avoid having to go fire up vi to hand edit /etc/fstab when configuring a new disk, volume or partition. If I had a nice GUI to do it, wonderful.

And, although I did very much enjoy writing sh, ksh, bash scripts in my previous life, writing make files, etc., I do not want to rely on that to do a backup of critical files on my professional system. I have no problem (in fact would enjoy) going back and re-immersing myself in man pages to re-learn all that stuff in my leisure. For example, before boarding my flight back to California from London recently, I installed cygwin on my Windows 7 machine in order to easily backup all of my important files (several GB worth) to my Ubuntu system using scp. And, it was easier to do via a bash command than to get WinSCP working.

I just don't want to be doing stuff like that for critical work.

So, @boughtonp, thank you, you hit the nail on the head.... ;-)
 
Old 01-17-2020, 02:19 AM   #24
Geist
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I getcha, especially with the "little time" aspect,etc, but Windows at least is a HUGE timesink too. Especially if you reinstall it and, nowadays, with all that telemetry.

I mean, the fact that you used Apple products DOES put you ahead of the curve somewhat, it is *nix, too, after all, but imagine being a total and utter 'tech illiterate' and even something like 'sticky keys' triggers because how goes it? Hit shift five times or hold shift for a bit?

Well, there actually is a (granted, jokey, it's a shoebox with cheap plastic figures and a few coins in it) shrine...to me, to myself in Arlington Texas because I once was the savior of the family computer of an online friend where that exactly happened.
(Among other problems I fixed in one go)

This 'accessibility' option completely ruined the ability for the entire FAMILY of my friend to use the computer, and that's just one aspect of it, one aspect of many.
Etc, I could go on, but it's so bad, that had I not made such a snarky and haughty reply and instead went "Enjoy windows then" then the sheer bad karma of that thing would have made even that into a cursed reply.

It's just that many people deal with the awfulness of Windows so much because they have literally nothing else (not even macOS, much less any Linux distro) that they kind of forget how much maintenance it really needs.

It's also the reason why so many scammers can run the tech support scams, they're believable enough to work at least sometimes.
The users don't know, Windows is such a hunkajunk that they believe it. If Windows were better, this would happen less.

P.S.:
I realize that Linux as a whole new experience is probably more daunting than dealing with sticky keys, but most of Linux stuff is paid up front and then it usually works for a long, long time.
Plus, if it finally became the standard OS then we'd see THAT in schools and whatnot.

Last edited by Geist; 01-17-2020 at 04:56 AM.
 
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Old 02-01-2020, 10:55 AM   #25
hazel
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You don't need to use vim to edit your configuration files. Linux has loads of graphical editors.

You can run the acrobat reader in Linux but nobody bothers because there are plenty of other pdf readers available. And I bet there's a Linux equivalent for Docusign too.
 
  


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