Too Little, Too Late? - NY Times Finally Pulls Out the All the Stops on Climate Change

Meh, 2nd thing is to get rid of capitalism or any kind of favoritism.

It would make the sentence free ride in jefro's view.

Moot.

I don't want to derail my own thread but I think it should be noted that in it's pure form Capitalism has no favoritism and is the economic equivalent of Democracy where each dollar is a vote. The problem is that Capitalism never starts out as a level playing field in that some people have more "votes" and sooner or later they manage to get laws passed that limits any competitors thus killing the whole concept of FREE Enterprise. Every other system requires some form of coercion so IMHO while flawed and in need of corrections from time to time it is still the most free, the most equitable and the least dictatorial economic system to date.

As it applies to this thread which I consider to be heavily wrapped up in Coal, Gas and Oil, when those industries began they were so new that there was barely any competition. To be more clear coal had been around a lot longer and oil and gas would've competed if coal weren't simply so cheap, largely at the expense of miners but requiring less processing than gas and especially oil. Once Gas and Oil got off the ground they were so valuable to a growing nation they got lots of governmental assistance and once given it's hard to take it back so they accumulated ever more and morphed from a solution into a problem by blocking any further innovation.

Additionally though the application of such things as the Oil Depletion Allowance and numerous other laws of corporate welfare in the US, the price is kept unnaturally low giving it yet another edge against startups. This is not Capitalism. This is what Capitalism invariably evolves into - lip service for free enterprise while actually locking everything and everybody down. It has gone so far to where the lines between government and enterprise are so blurry that it becomes indistinguishable from Fascism, that Big Oil no longer pretends lip service but brags about how they control government. Obviously their propaganda and spin doctoring have been quite effective of nearly 60 years after human caused climate change became a concern we still have so many that buy into their con. Ayn Rand, a champion of pure capitalism, called it "The Sanction of the Victim" just like that of virgins and warriors in line for human sacrifice stop fighting or never choose to resist because "that's the way it is".

Originally Posted by rokytnji Meh, 2nd thing is to get rid of capitalism or any kind of favoritism.

And this is the crux of the ideology behind the Climate Change movement. It is a political movement disguised as science. Again, reference the links in other posts for this thread regarding: Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, Marx, Lenin, etc....

Originally Posted by enorbet I don't want to derail my own thread but I think it should be noted that in it's pure form Capitalism has no favoritism and is the economic equivalent of Democracy where each dollar is a vote. The problem is that Capitalism never starts out as a level playing field in that some people have more "votes" and sooner or later they manage to get laws passed that limits any competitors thus killing the whole concept of FREE Enterprise. Every other system requires some form of coercion so IMHO while flawed and in need of corrections from time to time it is still the most free, the most equitable and the least dictatorial economic system to date. As it applies to this thread which I consider to be heavily wrapped up in Coal, Gas and Oil, when those industries began they were so new that there was barely any competition. To be more clear coal had been around a lot longer and oil and gas would've competed if coal weren't simply so cheap, largely at the expense of miners but requiring less processing than gas and especially oil. Once Gas and Oil got off the ground they were so valuable to a growing nation they got lots of governmental assistance and once given it's hard to take it back so they accumulated ever more and morphed from a solution into a problem by blocking any further innovation. Additionally though the application of such things as the Oil Depletion Allowance and numerous other laws of corporate welfare in the US, the price is kept unnaturally low giving it yet another edge against startups. This is not Capitalism. This is what Capitalism invariably evolves into - lip service for free enterprise while actually locking everything and everybody down. It has gone so far to where the lines between government and enterprise are so blurry that it becomes indistinguishable from Fascism, that Big Oil no longer pretends lip service but brags about how they control government. Obviously their propaganda and spin doctoring have been quite effective of nearly 60 years after human caused climate change became a concern we still have so many that buy into their con. Ayn Rand, a champion of pure capitalism, called it "The Sanction of the Victim" just like that of virgins and warriors in line for human sacrifice stop fighting or never choose to resist because "that's the way it is".

Unfortunately, Capitalism only existed in the USA for the first 75 years or so, after that it became a managed bureaucratic economy that only pays homage to Capitalism while reinforcing its worst aspects and retaining very little of its benefits. As an example, the US tax code is Marxist not Capitalistic, a Capitalistic tax code would be the same percentage for everyone regardless of income. Let's say 10% (ideally less), so if you make $20K per year your tax rate is 10%, if you make $100 million per year your tax rate is 10%. Guess what, those making more would pay more, but not be penalized for their success. Of course all of the tax breaks, hand outs, subsidies etc... are not Capitalistic either. No company should get a government handout, whether big or small, but handouts are part and parcel with Fascism/Communism/Socialism. Also, Capitalism is not unique to the USA, only in modern times, there were three time periods in China that had a similar system and helped inspire the Western view of Capitalism (Han, Tang and Song Dynasties, all three were golden ages).

Keep in mind regarding taxes, that according to the Constitution, we were supposed to be taxed on profit from Companies earnings, the individual income tax was added for war debt and was supposed to be temporary....and how quickly are we reminded that power given to the Government is almost never rescinded back to the people.

There is an old Taoist quote: Pure Capitalism makes everyone a slave, Pure Socialism makes everyone poor.

enorbet regarding your suggestions:

1) Nuclear, what do we do with the waste?
2) What about Fusion power?
3) Do you suggest a no coal/oil future or combination of resources?
4) Thoughts on individuals being able to generate their own electricity, currently many states/countries have made this illegal (at least with solar panels).
5) Future transportation?
6) Let's say the world followed your suggestions and the suggestions of the Man Made Climate Change groups diligently for 50 or 100 years and after this the Climate continues to "change" whether warmer or colder, then what?
7) The focus seems to be the planet warming, what if the reverse starts to occur at some point and the planet begins to cool, perhaps even as a little ice age, or major ice age?

I think I'll stick my oar in

With some (over)simplified suggestions.

Originally Posted by ChuangTzu 1) Nuclear, what do we do with the waste?

There are safe-ish ways of dealing with it and the problems are people based, not technology based. We should be going away from fission towards fusion.

Originally Posted by ChuangTzu 2) What about Fusion power?

Very nice, we just need to achieve it. So we should be putting resources into research.

Originally Posted by ChuangTzu 3) Do you suggest a no coal/oil future or combination of resources?

We need to get right away from fossil fuels and we should have started some time ago.

Originally Posted by ChuangTzu 4) Thoughts on individuals being able to generate their own electricity, currently many states/countries have made this illegal (at least with solar panels).

I'm really having trouble wrapping my mind around it. There are environmental problems associated with PV cells, but it doesn't sound like they're the driver.

Originally Posted by ChuangTzu 5) Future transportation?

Same as now, different energy sources (eg biofuels, hydrogen, fusion)

Originally Posted by ChuangTzu 6) Let's say the world followed your suggestions and the suggestions of the Man Made Climate Change groups diligently for 50 or 100 years and after this the Climate continues to "change" whether warmer or colder, then what?

50 or 100 years may only enough to slow and not reverse the process. If global warming is reduced then our efforts will be bearing fruit. If warming continues (assuming we stop putting fossil carbon and other greenhouse gases in the air) then the model will need to be drastically revised.

We have a model that seems to be working. Unfortunately we don't have certainty, just probability - like everything else in life eg seatbelts greatly enhance the overall chance of surviving a collision with a lower risk of injury, but don't guarantee anything (in some scenarios seatbelts increase the probability of death/injury). We can't really say we are certain that the current rate of global warming is man made, but we can say that the probability is extremely high.

Originally Posted by ChuangTzu 7) The focus seems to be the planet warming, what if the reverse starts to occur at some point and the planet begins to cool, perhaps even as a little ice age, or major ice age?

Then we have less of a problem with global warming. Whether or not we can do anything to ameliorate adverse changes remains to be seen.

Originally Posted by ChuangTzu There is an old Taoist quote: Pure Capitalism makes everyone a slave, Pure Socialism makes everyone poor.

I snipped the first paragraph because i am fully aware of the history of capitalism ad the ebb and flow within the US. I don't at all agree that Marxism and Fascism are indistinguishable even though there is some commonality but we've already discussed that.

I don't understand the "Pure Capitalism makes everyone a slave" concept since right off the bat it begs the question if all are slaves who are the slave masters? Pure Laissez Faire Capitalism means pure economic freedom both to succeed and to fail so I don't get how that translates into any manner of slavery. As I pointed out "pure" is an ideology an abstract since in the real world that has always morphed into the most wealthy gaining government access over time, such as we see so egregiously these days in the Lobby System, but that only works once "the rot" has a foothold which in practice seems nearly inevitable over time. I don't know and can't even imagine how that is best prevented, curtailed or reversed without some sort of review and modification structure. It is deeply complex but I don't see any other system even temporarily consistent with "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness".

As for the subsequent 6 questions I am pretty well in agreement with fido dogsoyevsky. The major point is that we need to get started sooner rather than later and see what can develop instead of being bogged down the the stonewalling of those dug in with fossil fuels. This seems to me imperative and for many reasons only one of which is impact on global climate.

Originally Posted by enorbet I snipped the first paragraph because i am fully aware of the history of capitalism ad the ebb and flow within the US. I don't at all agree that Marxism and Fascism are indistinguishable even though there is some commonality but we've already discussed that. I don't understand the "Pure Capitalism makes everyone a slave" concept since right off the bat it begs the question if all are slaves who are the slave masters? Pure Laissez Faire Capitalism means pure economic freedom both to succeed and to fail so I don't get how that translates into any manner of slavery. As I pointed out "pure" is an ideology an abstract since in the real world that has always morphed into the most wealthy gaining government access over time, such as we see so egregiously these days in the Lobby System, but that only works once "the rot" has a foothold which in practice seems nearly inevitable over time. I don't know and can't even imagine how that is best prevented, curtailed or reversed without some sort of review and modification structure. It is deeply complex but I don't see any other system even temporarily consistent with "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness". As for the subsequent 6 questions I am pretty well in agreement with fido dogsoyevsky. The major point is that we need to get started sooner rather than later and see what can develop instead of being bogged down the the stonewalling of those dug in with fossil fuels. This seems to me imperative and for many reasons only one of which is impact on global climate.

Regarding "Pure Capitalism", the master is money. Even Laissez Faire has some/minimal controls in place to avoid an extreme. The quote I referenced is regarding the extremes or the "Pure", which is usually where problems/dangers arise.

Regarding the corruption/lobbyists etc... A good start would be for a President to issue an Executive Order nullifying all prior Executive Orders (from every President), then issue one more removing the ability for any President to issue Executive Orders. All Laws/Edicts etc... go through Congress. Restore the Senate back to its original role of Representing States Rights and not directly elected by the people, they are supposed to be "elected/chosen" by each individual states Legislative branch to represent that State. This acts as a check/counter balance between the people and the states and minimizes the power of the Federal Government. This is a Constitutional Republic (the House of Representatives represent the people, the Senate represents the States). But this may be off topic for this thread.

Originally Posted by enorbet The major point is that we need to get started sooner rather than later and see what can develop instead of being bogged down the the stonewalling of those dug in with fossil fuels. This seems to me imperative and for many reasons only one of which is impact on global climate.

So what are you, as an individual, doing to prevent climate change?

And why do all these conspiracy theory threads result in political battles?

Mill J allow me to answer that in reverse order. I don't see this thread as a "conspiracy theory thread" anymore than threads regarding the Apollo Missions and manned flight to the Moon. There is objectively verifiable/falsifiable evidence that Man has landed on the Moon and that major and unprecedented change in climate is occurring that powerfully appears to be as a result of humans burning fossil fuels with no other credible possibility. Certainly it is not possibl to rule out that some cause we cannot see or imagine is at work here but our best understanding says that we have "defecated in the kitchen".

I have already mentioned that I don't see individuals all by themselves having any sort of major impact. IMHO it has to be Top-Down first since we are stuck with whatever options are available and those have been diminished from the Top as well as the major contributors continuing as if there was no tomorrow. So the very first steps as I've said I think is awareness and sense of importance which is still very much missing.

Still individual efforts do add up and there are options within options. I minimize my driving by combining short trips to do far more than just one errand. My car gets 42mpg and I drive less than 1500 miles per year. My home is extremely well insulated including the foundation which has R-32 all around the perimeter and extending four feet underground so that the basement creates a thermal mass that acts like a thermal flywheel smoothing out temperature swings easing the load on heating and cooling which is controlled by a programmable thermostat. Our Hot Water heater has a jacket that is R-24 and I'm considering a small solar pre-heater to raise ground water temps to reduce BTUs required to bring it up to washing temps. My appliances are all relatively new and have high Energy Savers. All windows are Thermo-Pane. Outdoor lights are light or motion activated. There is a lot more i could list but these are the Biggies.

1,500 miles per year...That's impressive! Must be a highly urbanized area with mass transportation.

It's a slow month if I only drive 1,500 miles. But I am in a rural/semi rural area where the nearest city is 30 miles away and its a small city, closest medium-big city is 1.5 hours west, 2 hours north or 4 hours south. My car does average 35-38 miles per gallon which I consider great for an AWD SUV, only spend about $25-30 per week on gas at current prices.

PS: I will say this, having gone through about 9 or 10 hurricanes just in the last 20 years, and having lost power for 2 weeks a few years ago, you can live quite comfortably without power. You adjust to waking up with the sun, and going to bed shortly after sundown, among other changes. Life becomes very quiet when all those EMF's are gone, you would be surprised how much you cannot hear with the humm/buzz of the wires in your home for example.

Actually ChuangTzu I live in a rural mountain area but I am basically semi-retired in that I'm old, self-employed and can do 90% from home. Because I have a sizable freezer and a garden I shop for groceries once a month.

I agree about living without electrical power or at least minimal power. Many years ago my brother and I bought 140 acres in The Rockies and for about 16 months the only power we had was from an ancient 25KW alternator we bought used from a logging outfit that we powered with an old 30HP VW motor at 1100 RPM high idle. This was largely possible because of a used but great condition Servel propane gas refrigerator and a bank of 10 junked but restored car batteries. It was actually quite comfortable and very peaceful.

Well this looks interesting:http://www.thoriumenergyworld.com/pr...y-from-thorium

Originally Posted by enorbet Actually ChuangTzu I live in a rural mountain area but I am basically semi-retired in that I'm old, self-employed and can do 90% from home. Because I have a sizable freezer and a garden I shop for groceries once a month. I agree about living without electrical power or at least minimal power. Many years ago my brother and I bought 140 acres in The Rockies and for about 16 months the only power we had was from an ancient 25KW alternator we bought used from a logging outfit that we powered with an old 30HP VW motor at 1100 RPM high idle. This was largely possible because of a used but great condition Servel propane gas refrigerator and a bank of 10 junked but restored car batteries. It was actually quite comfortable and very peaceful.

I'm quite fond of mountainous areas, and every other year make a trip to either the Cherokee, NC area, Gatlingburg, TN area etc...

Maybe this post will serve as some kind of denouement for this thread but however it is perceived it may at least be some sort of closure. I want to state that I think that exactly because there has been such long, strong denial that human caused global climate change is a reality all the while the evidence continues to mount slowly, inexorably is very likely evidence of it's own since that is the common denominator in apocalypse. We often refer to a from of it as "crisis management" where we wait to solve problem hot spots until they are big enough to burn our asses. It is the most common form of defense and not without some justification since it is not only possible but common that some people in some situations are so limited in power and so under siege from problems that all one can muster is putting out those taller fires that put one in imminent danger. Unfortunately that is The Alamo, doomed to likely failure. It becomes clear if one has some success that it takes less power to stop fires before they even burst into flame at all, but that requires both understanding and a wealth of power. In this way we deal with crises. We don't waste energy "tilting at windmills" brcause that is not only as inefficient as waiting till danger is imminent, it can deplete our ability to deal with real problems and is a sign of paranoia where the view becomes "enemies are everywhere".

Having been born in the late 40s I grew up where clean, potable water was freely available and I find the following a perfect and relevant comic interlude. I will mention that it might be NSFW unless you wear headphones at work.

--- UnCommon Sense ---

As funny as that is, maybe even because that is funny at all, is a demonstration of a trend we all suspect is likely happening and with little or no power to do anything about it. After there is a finite amount of water on planet earth and we literally drink water that was once urinated by dinosaurs and drunk and bathed in by the The Roman Empire. There are people that could be referred to as alarmists that consider the absolute limitation of the amount of water readily available alongside the ever growing population who need to use it to survive. It is posited that not too far down the road there will be actual wars over water, that crops will fail and cities destroyed by riots. It might be then we wish glaciers and the ice caps were still there.

I hope you don't find this post too far afield because it isn't just technology at the stage of burning fossil fuels that is influencing climate so drastically. It's that there are so many of us that require technology for our modern lifestyles which is, or at least could be, a totally good thing IF we can develop ways to transition to yet more efficient and widespread ways to deal with the survival Supply and Demand required to support an ever-growing population. OR we can just have faith that a solution will arise all by itself by the simple process of decimating the population down to a manageable level when "the fires" rage out of control well past the height of our asses.