You seem to be missing the points in my post. I don't mean to argue with you, since you were very helpful to me on Solaris questions. But I am very involved in transaction processing performance for virtually all the fortune 500 companies and I have never heard of any of them using Java except on front-end apps. It is not used in any mission critical points- there is no money flowing through it, no critical database access. It's all front end to COBOL or IMS back ends. UNIX does not, and cannot compete in the large systems arena, it's just not designed for that. And Java can't be (and is not) used in performance critical areas. You want to say it's fast enough..yes, fast enough for web and GUI front ends. And that is all.
All of those companies do indeed buy also from Sun and microslop. But that's all data entry stuff- the back end is all on mainframes. Yes, Websphere runs Java on the front end and all the real work is done with existing COBOL (and a little assembler) on the back-end. C has not replaced and can not replace assembler at all in large systems. Your comments suggests to me that you have no experience whatsoever in large systems. The reason, as I stated, is that the IBM OS (which is far and away the most deployed OS for mission critical (= $$$) apps in Fortune 1000 companies is written entirely in PL/X and some assembler, has no C header files and no C APIs to low-level services. This has been true since I started on this platform in 1975 and it's true today. UNIX is a very nice OS but it is not in the same league in terms of what it can do and what processors it runs on. You can run UNIX as a guest OS on IBM hardware and they've done some work to make it somewhat native, but nobody processes transactions on it since IMS and CICS and DB2 all had connections to financial back ends for twenty years before it. All the UNIX systems do is front-end work for the back-end. In answer to your question, I was addressing Taylor's comment about Java performance. And then I also addressed the other comments on portability by saying that portability is a false goal since it's largely irrelevant. When money and performance is involved, it doesn't happen in Java. The facts are quite plain and I don't care to waste more time on the subject. You may say all you wish as I'm unsubscribing from the thread :p |
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If you would have read my comments completely and taken them in context where I said I write performance measurement and improvement software then you would know that for such a person good enough, is not good enough. Performance is our business. And companies pay a lot of money for what we do for them in this area. Again, portability is largely a false and irrelevant goal. If that's all Java has going for it, then it explains a lot. Quote:
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hehe..
im not going to argue, i just wonder how you are such an expert on what java cant do when you obviously dont use it? and also its nice to see that there are still people around who will take over a thread about "What is java used for" and spend their time telling them that their assembly wrapped c libraries with crush their java apps on a Xyz benchmark on a blah blah blah server platform. that probably helps this guy who has had one programming class in his life a whole lot :), but thanks for filling us in about your life anyhow. im impressed, and by the way could you turn down the sun a little next time you are in the control room, my air conditioning is out. |
Sometimes explaining what something isn't used for also answers the question. We can't use Java because it doesn't perform. And it can't do systems programming, etc., etc., etc.
It's better for someone to make a post which addresses what some people have said (which is what I did) rather than being an a$$hole who just takes personal cheapshots (which is what you did). So you can take your impressions and jam 'em in your control room :p Sorry if the fact that I'm involved with real software troubles you. Have a nice day! |
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i thought you sounded like that kind of person.. anyhow i didnt mean to come in and cause such a disturbance, and im not trying to be offensive. sir, what you do sounds like extrememly advanced work, and possibly even interesting. heres a tip though, i (and most people, that is if you enjoy socializing with people), do not like to hear only about how you and what you do is beyound what anyone else could contimplate understanding, and when i hear that i tend to respond in a sarcastic manner. i did not mean to hurt your feelings, but if you cannot take that response, you should rethink your preaching skills. my sarcasm was in a direct response to a post from you, to me, so i feel that it was warranted. the fact that you are involved in "real" software does not trouble me (was that a cheapshot of your own?, oohh :)), server programming and benchmarking sounds extrememly fun. all i get to do is simulation work all day. mainly for the military, 2D simulations (alot like a starcraft type game), i work along on new ai for the units and enhancing existing the ai, also building ontologies that describe responses for the ai, and.. well ill stop there. ha, im starting to sound like you. next thing you know ill be posting a resume so that everyone knows that they should listen to me.. and a good day to you sir. edit> this has gone on enough for me. no matter how enticing your response. i will not post in this thread any further. the only thing worse than reading a thread like this is being involved in one. (no offense to any other posters intended. im referring to where this thread has progressed to at this exact post.) so i raise a white flag and surrender to you and your level of knowlege of things that simply boggles my mind. :) |
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I've found that in wikipedia Mainframe entry: Statistics Quote:
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Although the specific work you are doing seems to be quite interesting, most of what is done in mainframes is so boring. Think Cobol. Quote:
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Oracle has roughly 50% of the RDBMS market, and it run mostly on Unix/Linux. |
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Well, I don't really want to add any more fuel to the fire, so here's a non-opinion post that has something to do with language & technology comparisons. :) chromatic recently penned a pretty good article for O'Reilly regarding such things -- here's the link if you're interested.
http://www.oreillynet.com/onlamp/blo...ex_factor.html |
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I'm sorry to tell, but you are that much an expert in Java that you cite a C++ application as an example of Java slowness ... At least Randux is an expert in his area, I'm afraid you just repeat the FUD you read elsewhere. |
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No problem, everyone do mistakes, that's the way we learn.
Thanks for not be upset by my comments, people tend to sometimes overreact to my postings ... Cheers ;) |
So what exactly is java used for?
I think being free, it has been ported to most platforms. Except the actual system interfaces, nothing needs to be rewritten entirely. Being free it can replace proprietary apps (recently on an intranet in my company, we replaced dynamic graphing links that were using Ms-Office VBA with java applets). Side benefit is that applets render faster. (Note the applets were free downloads from the web). As to speed, for transaction based stuff, I think the page stepping time is the most significant. Java, C, C++ dont make any significant difference nowadays. End |
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There is a standard way of packaging web applications (.war files containing servlets and JSPs) and enterprise applications (.ear files) to be deployed on web-app containers and application servers. These servers are either proprietary, IBM WebSphere and BEA WebLogic, or Open Source like Tomcat, GlassFish, JBoss and many others. This is where most of the professional Java programmers are. There are also stand alone applications with Java, some good ones I'm using are JAlbum (Digital Photo Album), ArtOfIllusion (3D Modeling), GenJ (Genealogy) SDB (Sun Download manager) and NetBeans/Studio (IDE). Of course there are thousands more, places to look are sourceforge (a search of project with the keyword java returns 13192 results), and java.net ( http://community.java.net/projects/topic.csp ). Quote:
So it doesn't comply with the Open Source OSI requirements. This is planned to be changed in the future ( http://community.java.net/jdk/opensource/ ) That doesn't prevent you to freely download a JVM for most of the existing platforms, though. Quote:
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Java abuses pointers and eats up memory so that the programmer doesn't have to. J/k but it is a terrible idea to run the java machine on linux when you only have 128 MB of RAM. Limewire (a java app), for example, crashed the whole system every night that I left it running on my Redhat 9 Box. I have not noticed this problem in my new machine that has 1024 MB of RAM. I like using pointers in C/C++ even though I always screw something up by calling the delete operator on an uninitialized or NULL pointer.
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