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Old 04-26-2010, 01:08 PM   #1
Asido
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programming with modern IDEs


Hello,

To begin with, i am not a pro programmer or something. I know Pascal, Java basics - nothing special, but learning. All the time I used fully-featured IDEs. It makes the programming much easier.
Right now I am thinking, do I really need to know how everything is working and keep learning with IDEs or start doing everything in console - use gdb to debug manually, fpc/javac to compile and so on?
And speaking about professional programming, can a programmer manage without IDEs when making serious projects?

So those are my thoughts right now. What you people think about this?
 
Old 04-26-2010, 01:49 PM   #2
Sergei Steshenko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asido View Post
Hello,

To begin with, i am not a pro programmer or something. I know Pascal, Java basics - nothing special, but learning. All the time I used fully-featured IDEs. It makes the programming much easier.
Right now I am thinking, do I really need to know how everything is working and keep learning with IDEs or start doing everything in console - use gdb to debug manually, fpc/javac to compile and so on?
And speaking about professional programming, can a programmer manage without IDEs when making serious projects?

So those are my thoughts right now. What you people think about this?
Real programing is without the IDEs. I.e. using IDEs from the getgo is like using calculator without knowing/feeling basic arithmetics - no way of checking them, no way of feeling something is wrong with the end result probably because of a mistake in input. Being total slave of tools.
 
Old 04-26-2010, 02:05 PM   #3
tuxdev
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Unix is my IDE.

Seriously, pretty much all IDEs fall short of what I can do with just the standard utilities. I do use them for debugging, though. Setting breakpoints and such in GDB is a bit unwieldy.
 
Old 04-26-2010, 03:34 PM   #4
CoderMan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asido View Post
Hello,

To begin with, i am not a pro programmer or something. I know Pascal, Java basics - nothing special, but learning. All the time I used fully-featured IDEs. It makes the programming much easier.
Right now I am thinking, do I really need to know how everything is working and keep learning with IDEs or start doing everything in console - use gdb to debug manually, fpc/javac to compile and so on?
And speaking about professional programming, can a programmer manage without IDEs when making serious projects?

So those are my thoughts right now. What you people think about this?
I never use an IDE. I've done professional programming in Java, Perl, PHP, Python, and other languages, and all I've every relied on is open terminals and my favorite text-editor. Emacs provides syntax coloring, code folding, and all the other readability conveniences I've needed so far. I compile from the command-line with g++, javac, et cetera all the time.

A few arguments for avoiding the graphical IDE:
- learning the command-line methods give you a better understanding of the build process, which is helpful when you want to do something not built into the IDE
- non-graphical IDEs (Emacs, Vim, et cetera) often provide better keyboard shortcuts and more flexible macro scripting, allowing for increased productivity
- depending on a large graphical IDE ties you down to the system where the software is installed
- coding from the command-line makes you look more geeky and intelligent

At the end of the day, however, code is code. If you find that a graphical IDE makes you more productive, go for it.
 
Old 04-26-2010, 04:24 PM   #5
MTK358
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asido View Post
Right now I am thinking, do I really need to know how everything is working and keep learning with IDEs or start doing everything in console - use gdb to debug manually, fpc/javac to compile and so on?
You can't really "learn" programming in an IDE.
 
Old 04-28-2010, 06:41 AM   #6
Asido
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Interesting. And speaking about programming in terminal screen without X-window, do people work like that?
My question may sound stupid, but just curious :P I myself would like to learn feel comfortable in there, but can't see nice text editor (I am using jEdit, I like it the most, but it is for GUI only). Emacs/Vi looks kinda complicated.
 
Old 04-28-2010, 09:34 AM   #7
Sergei Steshenko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asido View Post
Interesting. And speaking about programming in terminal screen without X-window, do people work like that?
My question may sound stupid, but just curious :P I myself would like to learn feel comfortable in there, but can't see nice text editor (I am using jEdit, I like it the most, but it is for GUI only). Emacs/Vi looks kinda complicated.
I'm not sure your question is relevant. The point is not X versus X-less, the point is all the steps involved in SW creation and (non) debuggability through IDE/debugger.

For example, how are you going to debug a system heavily relying on IPC ? At the moment you stop (because of breakpoint) in a part of it you have significantly different from real life conditions, so debugging almost certainly stops making sense.
 
Old 04-28-2010, 09:17 PM   #8
graemef
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It does depend upon what you intend to do. As a general guide if you want to get involved in system level programming then you need to be able to get down to that level. This could mean that you do most of your work within an IDE but that you then jump out of the IDE and use the most appropriate tool as required. Again generally speaking, if you are coding at the application level then most of the work can be done within an IDE without any loss of control.

There is nothing wrong with using an IDE most of the time if you feel more comfortable with and IDE then stick with it. But please spend some time trying to understand the environment within which the IDE works (such as, for example, what the make files actually mean), and look beyond the IDE to discover different tools that might not be available within the IDE but which could be useful in your arsenal of development tools.
 
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Old 04-28-2010, 09:18 PM   #9
graemef
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTK358 View Post
You can't really "learn" programming in an IDE.
Nor can you really "learn" programming in a console.
 
  


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