you didn't get my point yet...

YES ,Linux tools work and work very well and the programs produced by them is better than the bad Micro$oft software.

However ,most programmers(companies) just don't care about that ,they want the tools that make what the customer need in the fastest possible time (money).that is why they appreciate M$ tools.

We need to convince those programmers that our tool are better (faster,productive and does save money) or at least if you (e.g. archlinux_jessica) does not like these time saving tools ,they are available to whom want them.

And by the way you didn't understand my example ,go back and think about it again :).
hint: CEO (programmer) does not need and should NOT care about/supervise/do those small details that can be automated by "tools".

Hmmm
 

I think I went over your head a bit with explaining how your examples don't work. The programmer does indeed need to care about the details because if they don't, they will create code that is both bloated and insecure. If a CEO continues to get complaints about the quality of their employee's work then they go find a better employee, at least that's what they SHOULD. But magically when it comes to software, they feel that its not that important.

You still don't understand that you can save time without hindering performance or security. You seem to have it programed in your mind that bloated expensive programming tools = faster development. At college we had a C/C++ class and had a project. My program was always designed above and beyond anyone elses in the class. Did my program take longer to make? Nope. Did it use more code? Nope. Did it use more resources? Nope. Because I had experience and a plan on how to properly create software. I had my own tools that increased my productivity that I created and improved performance. Programming requires creativity and understanding on how the "details" work in order to be a good programmer. If you don't spend your time learning the basics, how can you expect to get into the hard stuff? That's like trying to run before you have a chance to walk.

And as far as what companies use. I'm afraid your off once again a bit. Many companies are using Open source software for their corporate level work. Many use open office for their basic workers and Java tools that may not exactly be open source but are cross platforming. Once again QT is also a example of a Open Source and Non Open Source development tool. And did you miss my example on those that DO use these tools? Perhaps Yahoo isn't a company up to your standards... Nether is Blizzard...

(Though I do wish for a Linux native version of WoW... But at least I can run it on Wine perfectly... Better than nothing I guess).

I do agree that CEO's and companies need to look more into open source tools. I guess were not completely disagreeing. But your comments go against you when you state that you want a Visual Studio like app. Tell me precisely what you have against CodeBlocks or QT... I want details on why these are not suitable.

That is true. they should go into the details (e.g. evaluate their employees ) but they should go into this low level work ONLY if they need to. doing this routinly is the work of the "tools" available to them.


at least that is what most companies think and thus choose microsoft tools (see also next quote)



you can say that your outstanding skills made difference in this small project. tools are only one part on the equasion.


that is true for sure but ONLY when necessary . doing that routinely is a waste of time.


any documented statistics?


they are suitable and valid tools ,million of programmers use them. but M$ stuff provide more PRODUCTIVITY . you are right ,it is programmed in my mine due to the amount of comments and opinions i read in the internet as well as my own experience.

one example of that : in visual studio you can hover the mouse over a keyword and you get syntax help. press F1 and you get full reference material. that is just one example .off coarse i am not lazy to get c++ reference over the web ,it is just that it is unnecessary time wasted that tools SHOULD save it(why not?).

Can you provide an evidence of the contrary ?

Again...
 

“That is true. they should go into the details (e.g. evaluate their employees ) but they should go into this low level work ONLY if they need to. doing this routinly is the work of the "tools" available to them.”

“you can say that your outstanding skills made difference in this small project. tools are only one part on the equasion.”

“that is true for sure but ONLY when necessary . doing that routinely is a waste of time.”

Now were starting to get to the heart of the issue. Your level of software design is the result of learning to use tools. Learning only to use these tools only makes you a tool yourself, because anyone can use a bloated interface over and over to make their programs. What separates many true open source developers from “tool” programmers is that they rely on the tools to work quickly. This is because of poor development design. A true programmer doesn't routinely have to do these functions because they design their code to be portable. You design your functions to handle general purposes with very little editing. You edit the function if you find a better way of doing it and thus your software evolves to become faster and less bloated. Linux is where it is today due to this design structure and it has won over many because of it. You are a slave to what your tools provide and thus can never grow or learn beyond them.

I design a windowing system to meet the basic needs. I don't need to create one every time I create a new program, because its designed in a function and can be imported through a header file or copy and pasted into the code. That's why my code usually was created more quickly and more reliably because I knew exactly how it worked. While you spend time learning changes made in your tools by the software company that made them that only seems to get more bloated and less reliable, I'm still using things that ether I written or someone else in the company has that I can see and understand. Functions come and functions go, but in the open source world they evolve and improve.

“any documented statistics?”

About what? What Yahoo uses or Blizzard uses? You stated that software companies do not rely on these tools, in the context of games. I offered you two highly respected companies, one defines their very corporation off of games. And you ask for statistics? How about not avoiding my statements that contradict yours and focus on them for a moment? I stated my company uses Jdeveloper, PLSQL and various Oracle software tools that are available on Linux, I know because I installed the same tools on my Linux box so I could work at home. Various offices use Open Office for their basic work, while the higher development work usually consists of MS Office. While Open Office is a very nice system, people have been trained and are more comfortable with MS Office on higher level work, no point in hiding behind that fact. If people were more schooled on OpenOffice using their Basic system and various higher tools, then OpenOffice could easily take over that field as well. Its more about training than design flaws. But if you want to argue against OpenOffice and MS Office go ahead somewhere else because I'm not going to state its just as powerful, because its not completely comparable. It is amazing in its own design, but if your focusing on MS Office than OpenOffice wont work for anything outside basic work. But that doesn't stop companies from using that for basic data entry people like my company does.

So until you can discredit Yahoo and Blizards use of SDL and OpenGL than I really wouldn't continue to avoid the subject if I was you.

And for your Visual Basic example. Gambas? It will do the feature you just stated. Jdeveloper does as well and so does Eclipse. I'm not sure about QT but it does have various interface designs, or as you call them “Tools”.

And I have provided evidence, you just are ignoring them. I'll say it again because you seem to want to avoid it. Blizzard uses OpenGL for their 3D graphics along side DirectX. Yahoo uses SDL for their 2D graphics on their games. Want proof? Look into the config file for World of Warcraft and online, you'll find a OpenGL option you can put in. And for Yahoo. Download one of their games and you'll find SDL.dll in the main directory. I'm sure you can name many companies that don't use these tools but the very fact that a large gaming organization does use these tools contradicts your very claim.

Besides. Your on the offensive here my friend. I'm on the defensive. The burden of proof lies in your court. Even though I already did give proof.

@archlinux_jessica
only 17 posts and you wrote something that doesnt even
fit on a 800x600 screen LOL
and also i need to quit trolling

*docesam: WOW you must be a C# programmer, because if you were a C/C++ programmer you would know that Microsoft Visual Studio 2008 sucks for C/C++ development. The built in intellisense doesn't work 98% of the time, you get all these retarded errors: "Can't open dbp file". Microsoft tries to force you to use the extensions that they created which does not allow you to port your code. The list goes on and on. And yes I have used VS for 8 years (programming for 14) and I would rather use opensource tools any day. Why don't you learn VIM or Emacs if you want to be a real coder? Man do you even know how to work with memory? IE: Create a linked list, binary tree??? NO that does not mean using C# List<> lol

As for the game industry considering I am a game programmer. There is nothing that Visual Studio provides you that any other type of editor wont. Now if your talking VS + C# then yes VS is awesome and makes you highly productive. However it is useless for C/C++ programming. Like people have already commented VS is for lazy programmers who don't truly understand what they are writing. Oh yeah and with VS I want to see you automatically download any dependency like you can with both Linux and FreeBSD...

*archlinux_jessica: I agree with everything you said 100%. To be honest it seems like "docesam" is a drag-n-drop coder, and to be honest I am sure you can agree Linux was designed for real coders, Windows was designed for drag-n-drop coders.

Oh yeah one last thing "docesam" if you are a coder and want a highly "productive" tools (IDE) why not get off your butt and create one? You know you can use Qt to create an IDE pretty rapidly lol It's one thing to talk about "this sucks - that sucks" but you see a real programmer fixes the problem when they see one.

More
 

Thank you detectedstealth :)
And smeezekitty, I know I’m a bit of a newcomer on these forums but not exactly a newbie in programming or Linux. I just haven’t been in the forums much until recently. And I sometimes have a lot to say, and on this subject I can go for days ;)

It just gets me that so many people are coming out of the IT college fields with this kind of mentality. The art of programming seems to be lost in many of these people. People seem to think now that coding with a basic text editor is the “Old” way of programming. That over time people have come up with a better way and like to throw around the word “Productive” a lot. But please tell me how this is any better than the “Old” system.

Long ago people used to code off of punch cards. It was a hard, tedious project that required no errors or debugging and took hours and hours, sometimes days for a program to run. They had no order sort and were very low level. Eventually we moved into more digital means and developed electronic ways of storing data. This brought us things such as tape decks and floppy disks. These allowed us to save data much more simply and changed the face of programming all together. It was much faster and more reliable than the old system and the IT world was changed. With newer and more powerful systems, we created better languages that could perform tedious tasks with one line of code verses multiple lines of code to do a simple task, such as printing to the terminal. This helped back then because we didn’t always have a means of copy and pasting our code to make things faster, and it allowed for us to group our code effectively without taking a hit on performance. Programming was reshaped, by increasing productivity while not hindering security or stability. Really all a higher level language was, was using coding standards as a language, building functions to take care of tedious tasks and wrapping them into a “Language”.

Is that what we have with Visual Studio and C#? Absolutely not! It is taking a good concept and overdoing it to the point of losing its usefulness. It is focusing too much on speed and easiness while taking a major hit on performance and security. When you rely on too many libraries you find yourself at the mercy of any bugs or vulnerabilities of these libraries without a clue on how to fix them. You may be able to code basic programs faster, but try a higher level project and it becomes bloated and open to attacks (Reference Windows Vista for an example).

I guess the question is, do you code faster with these tools? I certainly don’t. I can type circles around any high level programming tool out there. I’m not restricted in what I can do, while when using one of these big editors, I find I am very restricted. It creates more lazy programmers that do not try and think about finding a better way to program (aka program “smarter”). And in order to provide any decent functionality, a GUI must become very encryptic in order to be useful, making the user do more and more work to create simple objects (isn’t the point of using it to make it faster and easier?) And you have to be trained with each version that comes out that decides to change everything, while programming in any language is very similar once you have the basics down.

Do game corporations use languages such as C#? Very little. Game development is a difficult type of programming. I can’t tell you how many people I’ve run into that wanted to get into “Game Programming”, only to give up before learning to write a decent small program. Game development takes a lot of patience and focus on detail. Performance is key in game development because you have to fit artificial intelligent design and game dynamics all inside a 30 – 60 frames per second loop cycle. Yes computers are getting faster, but at the same time, games are becoming more and more complicated. Sure you can build pong extremely easily now on a modern computer, but do you think anyone’s gonna care about that? Also with the advancement of mobile games, performance and speed is even more essential.

Also you have to ask yourself. If you was part of a large scale gaming corporation, which would you rather have? A coder that only knows how to handle bloated GUI development programs and a bloated and slow language? Or someone who knows how to program rapidly in a shell screen that knows all about performance and memory usage? That can learn to adapt and has well defined, useful programming standards. I don’t know about you but I take my profession very seriously and am constantly learning day by day. Don’t want to spend your time learning the details? Tough. No one forced you to be a programmer and sooner or later you’re going to learn that life is hard. When you’re competing with hundreds of pointy clicky programmers for a job, you better find a way to stand out. ;)

-Jessica-

PS. Sorry again for the long post. I told you I could go on for days!

what languages do you program?
WTF? the point is perfectally valid

to Kitty
 

What languages do I program in? I'm mainly into C and various Web Page languages. But I'll list all the ones I've used and learned.

C/C++, COBOL, ASSEMBLER (IBM at College and TASM at home, played slightly with NASM but not much.) BASIC (Grew up learning since I was 5), RPG (The language not the game style ;) ), Java (Both applet and Swing), HTML, Javascript, DHTML, PHP, ASP (Didn't have a option at work), MySQL, PLSQL, VBSCRIPT (ActiveX, once again at work)... I think that's it so far, I might have missed some though.

I can handle Shell Scripting in Linux if I need, but it involves Googling at times because I have yet to memorize many things in it. Same with DOS.

I can program in both the Windows and Linux environment and perfer not using too many bloated C libraries to code, sticking with Win32, X11 for GUI programming in C running side by side (Using #ifdef __WIN32__ kinda stuff)

I'm not afraid to go into source code of open source programs to learn or modify if needed.


Now for your next statement, I'm not sure I understand you correctly when you state that it was perfectly valid, was you talking to the owner of this thread or to me?

the original poster

<removed by me because it was inappropriate>

You know what blows my mind more then anything... Why is it that people coming out of school who have learned to drag-and-drop a GUI together think that they are a programmer? Microsoft really really screwed things up for people. No wonder why 90% of the technology industry just keeps copying other peoples ideas instead of creating anything innovative. Or why employers are starting to think it is ok to pay programmers $12 hourly.... heck I can make more then that pumping gas.

I am not sure how many other programmers are out there like me, but I don't really care about making normal GUIs. I am more focused on making GUIs that are built with OpenGL which my AI engine is controlling while it is monitoring my web community. GUIs as I think many people have forgot are for more then just point and click interfaces they are for data visualization, and highly interactive applications.

My point being no matter what IDE you use, or language you will not be able to make really cool software unless you understand your computer and what your language is truly doing. But if you are one of those programmers who just want to use VS 2008 with C# because it is easy and you don't have to think... you will be kicking yourself in 3-10 years when they hire secretaries to do your job. Then you will be sitting there watching the real programmers continue to make leaps and bounds over coming the impossible. If you don't believe me just check out Expression Blend from Microsoft. For those who have not heard of it, it is Microsoft's new tool for designing GUI interfaces with C# and WPF. Oh yeah I forgot to mention it is for artists to use not programmers.

@detectedstealth
WTF this is getting hairy

Its not hairy it is honesty....

just because i use an ide doesnt mean i dont know how to program
infact i dont use the autocomplete and such functions
the only reason i use one is because i can press a button to compile
instead of going to console of termenal