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Old 03-21-2019, 06:48 AM   #31
TB0ne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by young_jedi View Post
@freemedia2018 Awesome thanks for suggestions I'll check them out

@wpeckham I disagree, if that were true everyone would be using Perl cause of how much better it is than Python.. I agree with using the appropriate languages, e.g. C/C++ for low-level stuff, Perl/Python for userland stuff, Javascript/PHP/Go/Ruby for website stuff

@TBOne Thing is I know there are also some very experienced sysadmins who say its all about Go/Ruby/Python these days, and that Perl is god awefull (I know its not, its the bad coding practices of many Perl coders). It was one of the authors of the Linux Administration Handbook (watch the interview on YouTube if you want.. But they have a point: Python is being used to develope AI and Configuration Management tools (CM tools, e.g. Ansible), and Ruby is also being used to develope CM tools (e.g. Puppet and Chef).. Go is being to develope containers.. Perl is not being used to develope anything anymore... And one of the things that I listed is a language (its Golang = Go).. Bash, Go, and I thought Perl would be all I need to learn, but its probably rather Bash/Go/Python... Dont want to sound like im complaining, im just saying it kinda sucks i may have wasted some time

@ehartman well its too late to rewrite the kernel in another language like Rust/Go.. But I have nothing against C, I actually wanna learn it someday to write drivers...

@ondoho I use Alpine Linux, but know what you're saying but im not going to maintain those Perl programs..
Sorry, you are still totally wrong. Perl is being used to develop a LOT, and as many others have said in this thread, so are a lot of OTHER languages. If you ask ten programmers how to do something in a certain language that they are all familiar with, you'll get ten different ways to do it. No one is 'right or wrong'. Whatever video you watched was made from someones personal point of view. To sum up things you've been told repeatedly:
  • Yes, perl is still very relevant and widely used
  • Yes, other languages are also relevant and widely used
  • No, you shouldn't just learn one language
You asked for advice, and seem to be arguing with those telling you something different than what you thought....despite the advice coming from those who have more experience. And if you think learning something is a waste of time...consider another line of work now.

Last edited by TB0ne; 03-21-2019 at 06:54 AM.
 
Old 03-21-2019, 06:59 AM   #32
Samsonite2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by young_jedi View Post
Im going to learn basket weaving then.. Just kidding, but life is short and there are more productive ways to live it than
learning a bunch of random things.. You go to be smart and look at where things are going, so that you can make
educated decisions..
To me it seems obvious that learning this new skill will improve your career. Seems productive - learning is productive. It does not take much time out of your day to learn Python - I learned it during work time by simply using it to achieve the things I was asked to do - it really is one of the easiest languages to learn. Get paid to learn - cannot get more productive in life than that my friend!
 
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Old 03-21-2019, 07:09 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samsonite2010 View Post
To me it seems obvious that learning this new skill will improve your career. Seems productive - learning is productive. It does not take much time out of your day to learn Python - I learned it during work time by simply using it to achieve the things I was asked to do - it really is one of the easiest languages to learn. Get paid to learn - cannot get more productive in life than that my friend!
Agree totally, and the OP has been told this numerous times. Yet they continue to go on about how they don't agree that perl is useful, and they 'wasted' their time learning it.
 
Old 03-21-2019, 07:11 AM   #34
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Personally, I agree with most of what's been said, so my 02 cents...

I'm currently trying to learn C myself, and it's not just about the particular language that you learn/don't learn. As I'm finding that it also teaches you to think about things in a different way, and understand the software environment a lot better in general. I'm not trying to learn C to be "cool", it's about (as others have said, particularly wpeckham's post #12 - which I totally agree with) getting a better understanding of software in general, and particularly solving problems. I also think that it would be a good skill to have, and have found it to be quite an interesting experience. Anybody can use software, but can you logically think about things? Can you solve problems? I'd like to get an even better understanding of that myself. Even though I've been using computers since I was probably 10 years old (or thereabouts), and Linux since the mid to late 2000's, I'm still learning things that I probably otherwise would not have learnt by trying to learn C.

If you think Perl is a "waste of time", then why not pick a different language, or don't bother with any language? As I've gotta be honest and say that it seems pointless to me to complain about Perl when you could focus on something else instead. Just say'n.
 
Old 03-21-2019, 11:06 PM   #35
young_jedi
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@TBOne
Quote:
Perl is being used to develop a LOT
Please name one...

Quote:
You asked for advice, and seem to be arguing with those telling you something different than what you thought
Sorry im not one to blindly follow what other people tell me without them first offering a basis for their conclusions.
With that said I take everyone's responses into consideration and factor that in to what I believe to be right.
But you havent given a convincing agrument that Perl is still a valuable tool, all you're saying is "it's used alot"..

Quote:
And if you think learning something is a waste of time...consider another line of work now.
Dude, I study technology literaly 24/7.. I live and bathe in the warm glow of the terminal.. But im not going to subscribe to the idea that
learning things of less priority is a smart decision.. I think that way of thinking is the fault of alot colleages making students
take courses that dont apply to their major, like French (cause "it will make you a better person"). But in reality French has nothing to do with
Computer Science. Perl is a less of a priority than Python these days, as it all about supply and demand, and Python is in more demand (dont believe
me, check indeed.com)

@Samsonite2010 No arguments there, I should have learned Python from the Gecko, Im just glad its piece of cake to learn..

@jsbjsb001
Quote:
I'm currently trying to learn C myself, and it's not just about the particular language that you learn/don't learn. As I'm finding
that it also teaches you to think about things in a different way, and understand the software environment a lot better in general.
I used to think the same way, but in the long run will learning C really be that useful to you if your're not actually ever going use it in your
field of profession? Are you sure there's not something else that you could learn that would be a more efficient use of time? These are
hypothetical questions, im not actually asking you. Im just saying these are the questions I'm asking myself with this Perl connudrum. But C btw is
actually a very useful tool IMO, seeling that Linux is written in it...

@Everyone In conclusion I think Perl is only used by people who currently know how to use it, and eventually will fade away all together
as more and more developers try to remove the bloated perl code from their projects (Just like BSD, Alpine Linux, and AWS are doing),
as they cant find enough Perl programmers to maintain them.. And because Perl is too hard to learn for new programmers unlike
Python, which I can teach to my pet monkey Herambe.. With all that said I think its reasonable to state that companies will be looking for
Python coders (not Perl coders) cause their a heck of a lot easier to source, enabling companies to be more productive (and time is money cause
every moment of downtime is money lost forever)..

Last edited by young_jedi; 03-21-2019 at 11:52 PM.
 
Old 03-21-2019, 11:35 PM   #36
Turbocapitalist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by young_jedi View Post
...
as more and more developers try to remove the bloated perl code from their projects (Just like BSD, Alpine Linux, and AWS are doing),...
Actually some of the BSDs replaced their perl scripts with C, they being skilled C developers, only to find that in many of the cases the perl script had performed much faster. So it looks like some of it is being put back. It's a matter of the right tool for the job. If you are dealing with text and, especially regular expressions, you won't beat perl for performance in those areas.
 
Old 03-22-2019, 01:28 AM   #37
jsbjsb001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by young_jedi View Post
...
@jsbjsb001
I used to think the same way, but in the long run will learning C really be that useful to you if your're not actually ever going use it in your
field of profession? Are you sure there's not something else that you could learn that would be a more efficient use of time?
Yes, I believe it will be quite useful. At least a couple of reasons are that for one; I can write my own solutions if I think the current offerings are not up to the job I want them to do. Two, and going back to my point before, it will give me a better understanding of how other software works, particularly if I want to actually review the source code of said software - which is difficult if you don't understand the programming language it's written in.

Given, and as said above, a lot of applications are still written in C, then I think it's the best place to start. Also, and particularly since a lot of the same principals from C can be carried over to other languages, which makes them easier to learn should I wish to learn them.

Quote:
These are
hypothetical questions, im not actually asking you. Im just saying these are the questions I'm asking myself with this Perl connudrum. But C btw is
actually a very useful tool IMO, seeling that Linux is written in it...
...
That's fine. Yes it is very useful, and this goes back to what I was saying above too.

At the end of the day, it's really up to you as it is with anyone else if or what you want to learn.
 
Old 03-22-2019, 04:54 AM   #38
Samsonite2010
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An interesting facet of Python that not many people seem to know (but correct me if you all do know this!) - IronPython is an Open Source implementation of Python by Microsoft(!) and this is actually how I ended up learning Python at work. I was a C# developer and a project came up (a fairly high-profile project) where Python/IronPython was to be used - nobody wanted to touch it, including me. I eventually decided to put my hand up and give it a go - partly because one feature of IronPython is that you can invoke .Net DLLs, so I knew I could just write C# and use it from Python - worst case scenario. Apart from that the IronPython language is the same as Python.

MS even provide (or did at the time) a free IronPython Studio which was Visual Studio, but only for Python. I started to enjoy Python and realized that compiling DLLs was a bit silly and took away from the point of Python for this project, i.e. interpreted (non-compiled) code which allowed you to write some useful code with the ability to change it with no system downtime (unlike compiling and redeploying the software).

Anyway, just wondered if anyone else had seen or touched IronPython as it was my gateway into Python and in some ways helped me forge ahead with Linux - previously developing in .Net had kept me on Windows for a long time.
 
Old 03-22-2019, 05:19 AM   #39
ehartman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by young_jedi View Post
Please name one...
I.e. libssh is partly written in perl, has a perl (but NO python) binding and has been used for instance in sftp clients for KDE etc. (it is a developer library for secure shell capable programs).

And at my (previous, I'm retired now) job at the university perl was used to write the interface scripts between Linux LDAP clients and the central Active Directory Servers (M$), especially to mount centrally managed home directories for Linux users. That was in fact the reason I had to learn perl, to be able to understand and adapt those scripts.
 
Old 03-22-2019, 06:27 AM   #40
wpeckham
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Quote:
Originally Posted by young_jedi View Post
@TBOne

Please name one...


Sorry im not one to blindly follow what other people tell me without them first offering a basis for their conclusions.
With that said I take everyone's responses into consideration and factor that in to what I believe to be right.
But you havent given a convincing agrument that Perl is still a valuable tool, all you're saying is "it's used alot"..


Dude, I study technology literaly 24/7.. I live and bathe in the warm glow of the terminal.. But im not going to subscribe to the idea that
learning things of less priority is a smart decision.. I think that way of thinking is the fault of alot colleages making students
take courses that dont apply to their major, like French (cause "it will make you a better person"). But in reality French has nothing to do with
Computer Science. Perl is a less of a priority than Python these days, as it all about supply and demand, and Python is in more demand (dont believe
me, check indeed.com)

@Samsonite2010 No arguments there, I should have learned Python from the Gecko, Im just glad its piece of cake to learn..

@jsbjsb001
I used to think the same way, but in the long run will learning C really be that useful to you if your're not actually ever going use it in your
field of profession? Are you sure there's not something else that you could learn that would be a more efficient use of time? These are
hypothetical questions, im not actually asking you. Im just saying these are the questions I'm asking myself with this Perl connudrum. But C btw is
actually a very useful tool IMO, seeling that Linux is written in it...

@Everyone In conclusion I think Perl is only used by people who currently know how to use it, and eventually will fade away all together
as more and more developers try to remove the bloated perl code from their projects (Just like BSD, Alpine Linux, and AWS are doing),
as they cant find enough Perl programmers to maintain them.. And because Perl is too hard to learn for new programmers unlike
Python, which I can teach to my pet monkey Herambe.. With all that said I think its reasonable to state that companies will be looking for
Python coders (not Perl coders) cause their a heck of a lot easier to source, enabling companies to be more productive (and time is money cause
every moment of downtime is money lost forever)..
I have to point out to all, not you alone, that (bsed upon your reactions and replies) your post seems to be more to argue than to get advice. We have provided good advice based upon years of experience in the industry. You need not take any of the advice here, it is provided to help and guide you but the choices are yours. It is not reasonable to argue that the advice is somehow wrong or bad, it is what you asked for.

I suggest that we not argue abut your decision. Do what you will, I think that you will find the wisdom you need your own way.
 
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Old 03-22-2019, 08:17 AM   #41
TB0ne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by young_jedi View Post
@TBOne
Please name one...
Aside from the thousands of Perl modules on CPAN? Monitoring extensions for Nagios, Zabbix, and lots of others? And there's tons of others, and honestly, not going to bother to list any of them.
Quote:
Sorry im not one to blindly follow what other people tell me without them first offering a basis for their conclusions. With that said I take everyone's responses into consideration and factor that in to what I believe to be right. But you havent given a convincing agrument that Perl is still a valuable tool, all you're saying is "it's used alot"..
So you're not going to take it 'blindly'...yet you're going to listen to OTHERS that do support your point of view? Hope you can see the irony there. Yes, I use it pretty much daily. So do lots of others, and you've been told so.

Again you keep missing the point; learn it or not, your choice. Don't want to, that's fine...but if you actually think you're going to learn ONE language and have that be all you'll ever need without 'wasting your time', good luck.
Quote:
Dude, I study technology literaly 24/7.. I live and bathe in the warm glow of the terminal.. But im not going to subscribe to the idea that learning things of less priority is a smart decision.. I think that way of thinking is the fault of alot colleages making students take courses that dont apply to their major, like French (cause "it will make you a better person"). But in reality French has nothing to do with Computer Science. Perl is a less of a priority than Python these days, as it all about supply and demand, and Python is in more demand (dont believe me, check indeed.com)
Good for you; keep studying, because you seem to need it. And you don't seem to realize what college (not 'colleages') is for...you may not use French, music, art history, or anything else. It's there to round you out as a person, and expose you to thinking and knowledge that you DON'T have. And if you don't see the benefit, that shows how much you need it.

You're asking folks who work in the industry and do it professionally what they think. We told you, and you're still arguing about it. Again, you miss the point. If you checked Indeed a few years back, you'd have found NOTHING for Python, and tons for Ruby. Yet you ignore that, even after being told repeatedly that Python is just the latest 'hot' language, and is only **ONE TOOL** in a professionals toolbox. I have many people working for me, at my company...and trust me, if you came in with nothing but Python on your resume...it'd go straight into the trash. I don't need one-trick ponies...I need folks who do it ALL, who want to learn, and keep learning.

wpeckham put it best..there is zero point in entering into a discussion with you, since you don't want any differing points of view. You've been told by people who work in the industry that yes, it is still very relevant and very useful. But, that doesn't fit in with your YouTube video that you watched, and your opinion...so you continue to grouse about it.

Good luck. You will need it.
 
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Old 03-22-2019, 10:50 AM   #42
scasey
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Yup. Ignore list updated.
 
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Old 03-22-2019, 03:07 PM   #43
astrogeek
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young_jedi, as others have noted you seem to have had your mind made up before asking the question.

Tha is OK, you need not take advice given, but you did ask, and you have received very helpful and insightful replies based on the experience of a great many knowledgable people. If you do not want to consider the advice given, simply say "Thank you" and move on, and good luck whatever you do! But let's not argue the points made.

The path from youngling to padawan to jedi is long with many turns and pitfalls. Help the master jedi help you along your journey, and may the force be with you!
 
Old 03-22-2019, 09:47 PM   #44
dugan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by young_jedi View Post
Is chose to learn Perl over Python cause I thought it to be the superior programming language, and I still think it is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by young_jedi View Post
@Everyone In conclusion I think Perl is only used by people who currently know how to use it, and eventually will fade away all together

as more and more developers try to remove the bloated perl code from their projects (Just like BSD, Alpine Linux, and AWS are doing),
as they cant find enough Perl programmers to maintain them.. And because Perl is too hard to learn for new programmers unlike
Python, which I can teach to my pet monkey Herambe.. With all that said I think its reasonable to state that companies will be looking for
Python coders (not Perl coders) cause their a heck of a lot easier to source, enabling companies to be more productive (and time is money cause
every moment of downtime is money lost forever)..
I'm not sure why you started this thread and what you want to get out of it...

Last edited by dugan; 03-22-2019 at 09:53 PM.
 
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Old 03-22-2019, 10:31 PM   #45
young_jedi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbocapitalist View Post
Actually some of the BSDs replaced their perl scripts with C, they being skilled C developers, only to find that in many of the cases the perl script had performed much faster. So it looks like some of it is being put back. It's a matter of the right tool for the job. If you are dealing with text and, especially regular expressions, you won't beat perl for performance in those areas.
Thats weird I though I though low-level languages were more efficient, nevertheless Im suprised BSD would do that in the first place given their "If i aint broke dont fix it" mantra. And Python can emulate Perl's regex via PCRE (Perl compatible regular expression).

Quote:
Originally Posted by wpeckham View Post
I have to point out to all, not you alone, that (bsed upon your reactions and replies) your post seems to be more to argue than to get advice. We have provided good advice based upon years of experience in the industry. You need not take any of the advice here, it is provided to help and guide you but the choices are yours. It is not reasonable to argue that the advice is somehow wrong or bad, it is what you asked for.

I suggest that we not argue abut your decision. Do what you will, I think that you will find the wisdom you need your own way.
If I have knowledge of something that is contrary to what you're all telling me, im going to bring it up. If that angers or annoys you guys that's on you. But I dont see anything wrong in trying to iron out what the best way forward in terms of solving problems. Is the political climate in today's age as so one-sided where nobody
has the tolerance to hear an opposing view? This is a technology forurm and as technologists we want the best and only best (whatever that may be), personal egos or ideloglogies need not apply.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TB0ne View Post
Aside from the thousands of Perl modules on CPAN? Monitoring extensions for Nagios, Zabbix, and lots of others? And there's tons of others, and honestly, not going to bother to list any of them.
Perl’s problem is that if the Perl community cannot attract beginner users like Python successfully has, it runs the risk of become like Children of Men, dwindling away to a standstill; vast repositories of hieroglyphic code (CPAN) looming in sections of the Internet and in data center partitions like the halls of the Mines of Moria. (Awe-inspiring and historical? Yes. Lively? No.)..

Quote:
And you don't seem to realize what college (not 'colleages') is for...you may not use French, music, art history, or anything else. It's there to round you out as a person, and expose you to thinking and knowledge that you DON'T have. And if you don't see the benefit, that shows how much you need it.
You'll never convince me that colleage (that are not carreer focused) is anything but an intellectual waste of time. And its not cause im close-minded on the subject, but it's cause I know im right... Yes you may need collage to get a high-paying job, but like tech certificates the diploma means nothing.. I know that's hard
for someone who's always been told from birth that they had to go to college to be anything in the world, but its true. E.g. I can get a degree in a field totally unrelated to technology, yet I'll still land a tech job over someone who's way more knowledgeable simply cause I have the degree.. Its just a piece of paper bro.. I'd respect it if they actually taught you something during the first three years, rather than just a last (not worth going into debt)..

Quote:
You're asking folks who work in the industry and do it professionally what they think. We told you, and you're still arguing about it. Again, you miss the point. If you checked Indeed a few years back, you'd have found NOTHING for Python, and tons for Ruby. Yet you ignore that, even after being told repeatedly that Python is just the latest 'hot' language, and is only **ONE TOOL** in a professionals toolbox. I have many people working for me, at my company...and trust me, if you came in with nothing but Python on your resume...it'd go straight into the trash. I don't need one-trick ponies...I need folks who do it ALL, who want to learn, and keep learning.
I bet you're wrong.. Python isnt just a buzzword it has successully superceded Perl in more ways than one.. The only thing that will replace Python is Go (I called it first).. And I dont get why you keep insisting that I only know one language; im learning Go, bash, and javascript (and I guess Perl since I already started)... But I think its cause you think you know way more and so you just blow everything I say off.. Im sure there things I know you dont.. We all can learn from eachother my young padawan..

Quote:
Originally Posted by astrogeek View Post
young_jedi, as others have noted you seem to have had your mind made up before asking the question.

Tha is OK, you need not take advice given, but you did ask, and you have received very helpful and insightful replies based on the experience of a great many knowledgable people. If you do not want to consider the advice given, simply say "Thank you" and move on, and good luck whatever you do! But let's not argue the points made.

The path from youngling to padawan to jedi is long with many turns and pitfalls. Help the master jedi help you along your journey, and may the force be with you!
Yes I came in leaning a certain way hoping for other to confirm my suspicions. Obviously thats not happening, but I'm not adament about what I think. I want to be proved wrong if indeed I am wrong. So far I dont think I am.. But I will say thank you nevertheless..

Last edited by young_jedi; 03-22-2019 at 11:26 PM.
 
  


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