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Old 04-26-2011, 05:20 PM   #31
SigTerm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nec207 View Post
So how does this work with DLL files?
Short version: Multiple programs can execute the code located at the same memory location, and they won't interfere with each other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nec207 View Post
Each being rename as file name(1), (2), etc. Linux
opens them as share.
All information in this quote is incorrect. Multiple programs can open same file, and no additional copies will be created. As I said, you should put that person into hospital before it is too late.

If you want to learn more, get a windows programming book.

Last edited by SigTerm; 04-26-2011 at 05:22 PM.
 
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Old 04-26-2011, 05:52 PM   #32
dugan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MS3FGX View Post
PROTIP: Ignore everything in the email this quote came from.
I would add:

PROPTIP: If someone was paid to send that email (e.g. it was a tech support email), then name both the company and the individual sender, and post the full headers.

However, I suspect that you actually fabricated that email for trolling purposes.

Last edited by dugan; 04-26-2011 at 06:28 PM.
 
Old 04-27-2011, 03:58 AM   #33
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Listen if this was flamebait of anti windows you would got it long long long long long ago .I could jump up and down on my knees bashing windows .I'm sure any reader that is reading this thread from the start would read the start of the thread and say yap this is a anti-windwos thread or flamebait of anti windows .

But no I don't know about programming or can I debuck or post anti windows talk .There is enough talk about windows being bloated and apparing even by some advance computer users saying that and windows vista and windows 7 more so.And Mac computer being very much less bloated .

But here is thing I'm not programmer so I don't understand or can even speak on issue.That me explain here that's take windows XP it may appear bloated to me and users but with out understanding of propramming it could take alot and I mean alot of work to not make it 80 times more bloated .Same with Mac OS X with not being programmer there no way to know if the underline working is bloated and apple likes to show on the the surface it appears not.

In other words with out me taken programming and understasnding OS gutts of the OS not just how to use it , I have no right to comment of the talk floating around on the internet of windows being bloated and large number of files to keep the OS going and appearance to user it very much like this.

That me say it again talk floating around on the internet of windows being bloated and large number of files to keep the OS going and appearance to user it very much like this.



Of corse there 2 times people .

1 will go and post anti- windows stuff
2 understand programming and understasnding OS gutts than you can understand why it may be the case or not.




Look we are not programmers or computer experts of code and OS gutts we are users using a computer that appears bloated we do not understand why or the complexity. Or even if it is possible to run windows vista with 500 files ,5,000 files, 10,000 files or 250,000 files we are not programmers or understand the gutts of OS so any number is pure fiction to us.


So you can understand programming and gutts of the OS and answer why or post anti- windows stuff and make fool out your self not understand programming and gutts of the OS.Yes I'm sure some readers may thought this thread was going to be anti- windows stuff or I was going to get into a debate with some of the members and turn into a flame war .

I gusess I did not explain it clearing that I'm looking for scientific explanation here.

Well because I never ever ever ever ever ever made a simple software program like wordpad or DOS or windows 3.1 , I would not have any idea how much code or files it takes , Or the understanding or complexity.

Not even making 10% of windows 95 I would not have any idea how much code or files it take.Not even understanding programming and gutts of the OS I would not even know what too bloated is or even what is bloated or the meaning of bloated .


All I'm doing is user that is using OS and see thousands of files just to keep OS going and appears bloated and reading post on the internet of talk floating around on the internet of windows being bloated and large number of files to keep the OS going .





So I think the start of the thread should gone like this to not come across has this thread could turn into windows bashing flame war thread like some other people like to do on the internet.



Anyone know why windows use so many files just to keep the OS going and so bloated? I don't know any thing about programming or the gutts of the OS it just windows appears like that to me.




The under-line of files of windows is messy and loads self every where and very bloated.

Again I don't know any thing about programming or the gutts of the OS.I'm confused and don't know why it appears like that.

Can you explain. This not a windows bashing thread .
 
Old 04-27-2011, 04:25 AM   #34
Ramurd
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You mix up a few things; The OS is not bloated by having many files.
Windows may or may not be bloated, but it is NOT (and I repeat) NOT because of the amount of files.

If there is any bloat, it is because it integrates compatability with every possible kind of hardware with all drivers and all versions to ensure backwards compatability and because it does checking many things for you, because it assumes the user is stupid.

Linux expects the user to be smart and hence performs fewer checks, also usually you'll find that it does only work with the configured drivers and hence not all the backwards-compatability things that windows does.

Mac may use an even different approach, it's all in the approach, and then you get a system that does things a certain way; Either of those directions may bite you one way or another.

So once again, it has been repeated many times before:
Having many files does NOT define bloat they're two separate things altogether.
 
Old 04-27-2011, 10:11 AM   #35
SigTerm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nec207 View Post
I thought a bad DLL file or a program that does not release a DLL can?
All program resources are released by operating system once program is closed.
All open files will be closed, all dlls unloaded.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nec207 View Post
So in other words if we did not have DLL file windows would be more bloated.
Any modern operating system needs shared libraries(dlls).
Without dlls there can be no windows. DLLs are used to provide basic functionality like opening file, manipulating registry,
creating gui controls, etc. It is not possible to move this functionality into application.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nec207 View Post
But no I don't know about programming
This is a programming section, so your question is expected to be related to programming. Learning basics of windows programming is one of the easiest way to get answers to your questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nec207 View Post
There is enough talk about windows being bloated and apparing even by some advance computer users saying that and windows vista and windows 7 more so.And Mac computer being very much less bloated .
Define "bloat". Typically bloat does not mean "too many files". It means "unnecessary functionality". Most of the windows system files do not fit into that category.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nec207 View Post
I have no right to comment of the talk floating around on the internet of windows being bloated and large number of files to keep the OS going and appearance to user it very much like this.
Look, to understand OS, you need learn how to program for that OS. Mechanisms like dlls, their advantages and disadvantages are explained in windows programming books.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nec207 View Post
Look we are not programmers or computer experts of code and OS gutts we are users using a computer that appears bloated we do not understand why or the complexity. Or even if it is possible to run windows vista with 500 files ,5,000 files, 10,000 files or 250,000 files we are not programmers or understand the gutts of OS so any number is pure fiction to us.
I'd advise not to use "we". This is a programming section, a lot of people here know how to program, and some of them may be "experts".

Quote:
Originally Posted by nec207 View Post
I gusess I did not explain it clearing that I'm looking for scientific explanation here.
You were given an explanation. To achieve complete understanding, you need to learn basics of windows computer programming. I do not think there's any other way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nec207 View Post
All I'm doing is user that is using OS and see thousands of files just to keep OS going and appears bloated and reading post on the internet of talk floating around on the internet of windows being bloated and large number of files to keep the OS going .
Nobody forces you to understand how your OS works. Just keep using whatever OS suits your needs.
However, if you want to understand WHY os is that big, how it works, which resources are used, etc, then you'll have to learn how to program for that operating system. I do not know any other way to do it. The information you asked for is explained along with windows programming fundamentals.
 
Old 04-27-2011, 12:58 PM   #36
nec207
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Quote:
You mix up a few things; The OS is not bloated by having many files.
Is it not true when people say the OS looks bloated it looks fat not streamline.

Windows 3.1 control panel ,file on system and interface is nothing like windows 7. So you are going to say windows 3.1 was a simple crude OS and windows 7 is a conplex OS that does alot more !! But it feels more bloated .


Quote:
Windows may or may not be bloated, but it is NOT (and I repeat) NOT because of the amount of files.
Well alot of files will make it look fat thus bloated .But I'm in no position to talk about it to I understand programming and gutts of the OS , what those files do and if it is even scientifically possible to cut it down by 2% , 5% ,10% or 20% or more.In other words I do to not understanding programming and the gutts of the OS , I would have no idea how much code and files needed for OS like windows 7 that alone windows paint program or firefox or windows 3.1.


Quote:
If there is any bloat, it is because it integrates compatability with every possible kind of hardware with all drivers and all versions to ensure backwards compatability and because it does checking many things for you, because it assumes the user is stupid.

We are talking about files here needed to keep windows going.And there lots ,lots ,lots and lots of files just to keep the OS running.The drivers you install for the hardware.Looking at the spects for windows vista minimum HDD capacity 40 GB.

Quote:
All program resources are released by operating system once program is closed.
All open files will be closed, all dlls unloaded.

If the problem locks up how can it released the DLL?



Quote:
Any modern operating system needs shared libraries(dlls).
Without dlls there can be no windows. DLLs are used to provide basic functionality like opening file, manipulating registry,
creating gui controls, etc. It is not possible to move this functionality into application
There seem to be alot pro and cons of DLL and reading on the internet how some people say DLL files are bad and we should not use it and others say they are good.



Quote:
Define "bloat". Typically bloat does not mean "too many files". It means "unnecessary functionality". Most of the windows system files do not fit into that category.

I cannot define bloat or define too many files in a intelligent way to I understand programming and gutts of the OS .It is like me going to NASA and saying the space shuttle has millions of circuit boards and connectors and millions and millions of programming code why do we not bring down by the factor of 80 times to only 1,000 circuit boards and connectors and 2,000 of programming code. Take up rocket engineering than we can talk.

To I understand programming and gutts of the OS , I'm not even sure if it possible to run windows 7 on less files or how much can we make windows 7 run on less files by doing marvelous programming work staying up 24 hours a day and 7 days a week having millions of programmers trying to make windows 7 run on 2% , 5% ,10% or 20% ,40%, or 60% less files needed to keep windows running and going.And if this is even possible.

Last edited by nec207; 04-27-2011 at 01:02 PM.
 
Old 04-27-2011, 01:25 PM   #37
SigTerm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nec207 View Post
If the problem locks up how can it released the DLL?
OS knows which files program process opened and which dlls it loaded. If program crashes, OS releases all resources allocated by program.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nec207 View Post
There seem to be alot pro and cons of DLL and reading on the internet how some people say DLL files are bad and we should not use it and others say they are good.
Good or bad, a modern computer operating system cannot be created without shared libraries/dlls.
Also, you cannot create windows application that doesn't use at least one dll. Functionality like opening files, allocating memory are provided via dlls.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nec207 View Post
I cannot define bloat or define too many files in a intelligent way to I understand programming and gutts of the OS .
If you cannot define bloat, then you cannot say the OS is bloated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nec207 View Post
To I understand programming and gutts of the OS , I'm not even sure if it possible to run windows 7 on less files or how much can we make windows 7 run on less files by doing marvelous programming work staying up 24 hours a day and 7 days a week having millions of programmers trying to make windows 7 run on 2% , 5% ,10% or 20% ,40%, or 60% less files needed to keep windows running and going.And if this is even possible.
Software development costs money. When optimization gets too expensive, it is no longer worth it.
A million of (USA) programmers working for a month will cost you at least $5000000000 (and that's excluding equipment maintenance, office maintenance, electricity bills, additional staff costs, etc).
Adding more people to development team will not increase development speed, and might even slow down development process due to increased amount of required communication. Also please note that entire Microsoft corporation has less then 100000 employees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nec207 View Post
Well alot of files will make it look fat thus bloated .But I'm in no position to talk about it to I understand programming and gutts of the OS , what those files do and if it is even scientifically possible to cut it down by 2% , 5% ,10% or 20% or more.
In this case I do not understand what is your question.
If you want to know why OS uses that many files, then you'll need to learn basics of windows programming.
If you do not want to learn basics of windows programming, then you will not be able to get an answer to your question.

Last edited by SigTerm; 04-27-2011 at 01:29 PM.
 
Old 04-28-2011, 01:32 AM   #38
graemef
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You appear to be confused with a number of issues. A little googling (or your favourite search engine alternative) may have shown you this quote:

"A dynamic-link library (DLL) file is an executable file that allows programs to share code and other resources necessary to perform particular tasks. Microsoft Windows provides DLL files that contain functions and resources that allow Windows-based programs to operate in the Windows environment."

Notice the dll allows another program to share code and other resources.

You complain about the number of different files that are on the system. If you want to know why there are so many, then you should have asked that, rather than prejudice the statement with the term bloated, a term which you have been unable to define. So what is your question? Do you want to know why a modern OS has so many files? In short it is because a modern OS does so much, and the files that you've seen are not just because you have installed an OS but because you have other application on the system as well. Also Windows is a general purpose OS and that means it is capable of a lot of different tasks, networking, 3D rendering, plug and play all of which add to the number of files that are generated and it is much better to have once file for one specific task than one file for all tasks.
 
Old 04-28-2011, 02:04 AM   #39
Ramurd
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I think this one fits:
Quote:
Take up rocket engineering than we can talk.
I'd say: Take up programming and learning OS mechanics, so we can talk. This "discussion" is going nowhere. SigTerm and others went a long long way to explain this to you, but you keep saying the same (windows is bloated because it has many files), as if you're not listening. I'm no windows lover (quite the contrary), but I prefer to have real arguments about real issues; not false, wrong and incorrect statements.
 
Old 04-28-2011, 02:43 PM   #40
nec207
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Talking to guy in a e-mail we read and read and this what it summed up to.

Sam words.


So the main reasons why.


-windows tries to maintain backward compatibility
-Another thing is that windows allows multiple versions of the same library to exist at same time
-There are many backups (dll backups, system restore points)
-And drivers for all kinds of hardware for compatibility for the thousands of different hardware out for windows)
-some programs make temp files.

Has for Mac OS x it is a close system.The OS X will only run on Mac computer hardware and drivers tested by apple. And it is illegal to try to load OS X on PC not to say it probably would not work do to diver problems as OS X is designed to only work on Mac computers where the hardware is small and tested by apple with OS X.

Where windows you can load it on thousands of different hardware thus bigger code and more files ..That why the fact windows even works is amazing not so much Mac computers are so much better but they only run on Mac computers where the hardware is small and well tested by apple where windows runs on thousands of different hardware .

For Linux no idea .But less than 1% of the people use Linux so you find most software and hardware do not run on Linux.

Well OS X yes it is more user friendly but than the OS is so so so so so so different!!
 
Old 04-28-2011, 03:18 PM   #41
Sergei Steshenko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nec207 View Post
Talking to guy in a e-mail we read and read and this what it summed up to.

Sam words.


So the main reasons why.


-windows tries to maintain backward compatibility
-Another thing is that windows allows multiple versions of the same library to exist at same time
-There are many backups (dll backups, system restore points)
-And drivers for all kinds of hardware for compatibility for the thousands of different hardware out for windows)
-some programs make temp files.

Has for Mac OS x it is a close system.The OS X will only run on Mac computer hardware and drivers tested by apple. And it is illegal to try to load OS X on PC not to say it probably would not work do to diver problems as OS X is designed to only work on Mac computers where the hardware is small and tested by apple with OS X.

Where windows you can load it on thousands of different hardware thus bigger code and more files ..That why the fact windows even works is amazing not so much Mac computers are so much better but they only run on Mac computers where the hardware is small and well tested by apple where windows runs on thousands of different hardware .

For Linux no idea .But less than 1% of the people use Linux so you find most software and hardware do not run on Linux.

Well OS X yes it is more user friendly but than the OS is so so so so so so different!!
So what ?

Files not used by an OS (though they might be needed later) do not make bloated. I.e. these files do not increase memory footprint and do not slow down the OS.

Every normal OS allows having multiple versions of the same DLL.
 
Old 04-29-2011, 02:13 AM   #42
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Had to laugh here:
Quote:
For Linux no idea .But less than 1% of the people use Linux so you find most software and hardware do not run on Linux.
Most hardware is supported by Linux, but you can compile them into the driver or as loadable module, depending on your wishes; The approach is different, because Linux assumes that a user is technically able to (re)compile the kernel, or let it be compiled for them...

As for the software, I think you'll find more software can be run on a Linux box than on a windows box; part because the windows api is being rewritten for Linux, so that Windows programs can run on Linux. Check out the wine project for that (www.winehq.org)

As for the 1%; Where did this statistic come from? I think the number is a bit higher than that.

And I think I'm not going to repeat that windows is not bloated because it has many files. It'd be repeating myself and others a bit too often, right?
 
Old 04-29-2011, 03:47 AM   #43
Sergei Steshenko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nec207 View Post
... But less than 1% of the people use Linux so you find most software and hardware do not run on Linux. ...
Actually, several years ago Microsoft used to distribute Windows updated through Akamai company servers which run Linux.
 
Old 04-29-2011, 01:35 PM   #44
nec207
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Quote:
Most hardware is supported by Linux, but you can compile them into the driver or as loadable module, depending on your wishes; The approach is different, because Linux assumes that a user is technically able to (re)compile the kernel, or let it be compiled for them...
sorry I don't understand this.

I thought hardware needs drivers and there is only 2 ways to get the drivers from the hardware makers or from OS.Windows has alot of drivers for hardware but not every thing that is where you use the hardware drivers from the hardware maker.

Also the drivers from OS are not any where has godd has the drivers from the hardware maker even fact that Microsoft tries very hard.



Note windows /Mac OS X has alot better plug and play support.

Last edited by nec207; 04-29-2011 at 01:36 PM.
 
Old 04-29-2011, 01:44 PM   #45
TobiSGD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nec207 View Post
I thought hardware needs drivers and there is only 2 ways to get the drivers from the hardware makers or from OS.
This is the way it works in Linux. Either you get the drivers with the OS (they come with the kernel) or you have to download and compile/install them yourself.

Quote:
Also the drivers from OS are not any where has godd has the drivers from the hardware maker even fact that Microsoft tries very hard.
Microsoft does not write any driver themselves, except drivers for the core functionality, like a standard SATA or VGA driver. All other drivers that come with the OS are contributed by the manufacturers.

Code:
Note windows /Mac OS X has alot better plug and play support.
Do you have any prove or example for this? I personally have no issues with plug and play and play. But as always, your mileage may vary.
 
  


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