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Old 03-03-2007, 10:23 AM   #46
jlliagre
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trashbird1240
In my position, I like Linux because it serves all my needs and it's less expensive.
By curiosity, how do you measure the respective costs of Linux and Solaris ?
I mean your Linux distro is very likely to be downloadable for free, while Solaris surely is, so how is one more expensive than the other ?
Is it media cost ? formal support ? learning curve ?
 
Old 03-05-2007, 02:32 AM   #47
Jaqui
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jlliagre, true enough, just not a complete inclusion. Most Unix oprating system versions are only available commercially. [ HPUX, Irix for example ] Solaris is actually bucking that status quo.
Sun Microsystems is trying to gain market share for Solaris by going open source and non commercial community version and the Commercial version for enterprise use.
 
Old 03-05-2007, 07:41 AM   #48
MensaWater
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Solaris had a fairly big share of the UNIX market (shockingly large when I went looking for a job 5 years ago) but shot themselves in the foot with the "cosmic ray affected" processors in their top of the line E10000 a few years back. At least one company I worked at had a Senior VP saying "We'll never use Sun for ERP again". Given that we had about 70 servers for ERP that was a pretty big dent in Sun revenues all by itself.

Solaris may have released free Solaris 10 but don't forget until then it was only commercial (aside from education freebies) itself.

Funny over the weekend I happened to overhear a conversation in which one person was saying to another "Yeah, but you can't run Solaris on x86". I didn't butt in because the other person let him know he was actually running on x86. I think most people still think of Solaris as "commercial". (Of course even in commercial versions they had it available for x86.)

Question: Is Solaris 10 for SPARC also free like it is for x86?
 
Old 03-05-2007, 08:13 AM   #49
Jaqui
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Yes, opensolaris is a multiarch project, and solaris is also.
I had a show stopper issue with solaris 10.0 on install. but 10.1 installed with no problems.
[ 10.0 locked up on usb-uhci module loading on my system, when no other *x did, I submitted a report and they resolved the issue ]
 
Old 03-05-2007, 12:27 PM   #50
Necronomicom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlightner
Solaris had a fairly big share of the UNIX market (shockingly large when I went looking for a job 5 years ago) but shot themselves in the foot with the "cosmic ray affected" processors in their top of the line E10000 a few years back.
just about one month ago we had unespected reboot on a sun server, we didn't find anything that could have caused the reboot, my co-worked opened a case with Sun and after they analysed it they sent us a reply saying that they didn't find anything wrong with the server either and the reboot was mostly caused by "cosmic ray affects", we thought we were the first ones to actually hear about those sun servers being affected by cosmic rays.




Quote:
Originally Posted by jlightner
Question: Is Solaris 10 for SPARC also free like it is for x86?
ya, its also free, and so are the other solaris versions, 7,8,9.
 
Old 03-05-2007, 12:51 PM   #51
MensaWater
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Not sure how old your system is - they had an issue with the processors in the E10000 (a/k/a E10K) and some other models (6500 maybe - I didn't have one of those) and did actually later fix them with what they called "sombra" CPU modules. You may wish to investigate if you have the old CPU modules and if they still have any of the sombra modules available. I hadn't heard of newer issues but a good um... *explanation* probably never goes out of repertoire.

It was a bit laughable. First they denied there was a problem. Then they would make you sign non-disclosure agreements before they would admit there was a problem. After the press got wind of it they stopped that but then tried to say you'd have to pay for the "sombra" modules but later backed off on that. (This reminded me of the original Pentium floating point issue where Intel went through some of the same shenanigans before agreeing to replace CPUs for free.)

However, believe it or not that wasn't the worst I ever heard. Once I saw a white paper from Sybase purporting to explain why certain database faults occurred. It was couched in a lot of double talk but boiled down seemed to say:

Our DB is so good it can predict when you're going to have disk failures on your multimillion dollar hardware array before the array itself can tell. Furthermore since we have so clearly predicted it we've gone ahead and marked the block bad before it actually failed.

Of course they didn't add "too bad if you actually have any data on that block because we don't bother to move it first". I always referred to this as the psychic DBMS whitepaper.

Last edited by MensaWater; 03-05-2007 at 01:01 PM.
 
Old 03-08-2007, 05:00 AM   #52
AnanthaP
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UNIX - trademarked,
Unix - generic name for those who bought the license for the source and ported it for their needs (eg; HP-UX, AIX, WINIX - in India ...).
Minix and Linux - separately developed from source to have similar functionality.

Is Linux the same as Unix? Well as far levels above the kernel architecture, I think it was so.

I think Unix was a precursor to Linux in some other things also. Like:
--> developed by one of the original creators of UNIX on a year long assignment to berkeley. So no monoliths.
--> BSD and SVR4 co-existing.
--> UNIX philosophy is to do one thing well and combine it with other free tools.

An interesting discussion about sybase marking blocks as bad. I think it goes against the common philosohy of the OS and sub systems doing that job. Certainly doesnt seem to be the job of an applicaion. Some other dinos do it still. Like SAP, Oracle etc. In fact SAP recommends that you manage the OS through their tea-codes.

End
 
Old 03-08-2007, 01:02 PM   #53
jlliagre
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaqui
jlliagre, true enough, just not a complete inclusion. Most Unix oprating system versions are only available commercially. [ HPUX, Irix for example ] Solaris is actually bucking that status quo.
Sun Microsystems is trying to gain market share for Solaris
Sun is succeeding, not just trying to gain market share, which shows a free and open source strategy is not a bad choice.

http://www.sun.com/aboutsun/pr/2007-...20070226.1.xml
Quote:
by going open source and non commercial community version and the Commercial version for enterprise use.
The "commercial" version is as free as the open solaris based ones, whatever the architecture (SPARC, amd64 or x86).

Last edited by jlliagre; 03-10-2007 at 11:42 AM.
 
Old 03-08-2007, 01:07 PM   #54
jlliagre
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlightner
Solaris had a fairly big share of the UNIX market (shockingly large when I went looking for a job 5 years ago) but shot themselves in the foot with the "cosmic ray affected" processors in their top of the line E10000 a few years back.
This is true, but is mostly history now.
Quote:
At least one company I worked at had a Senior VP saying "We'll never use Sun for ERP again". Given that we had about 70 servers for ERP that was a pretty big dent in Sun revenues all by itself.
Don't underestimate Sun revenues ...
 
Old 03-08-2007, 02:15 PM   #55
MensaWater
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I won't - so long as you don't overestimate them.

I've met a lot of very unhappy ex-Sun employees over the last 5 years. Funny thing though - one of the ones I knew that did the most griping about them jumped at the chance to go back when they had an opening 3 years after laying him off. Apparently Sun was a nice place to work and the real world was a bit of a shock for the ones that had to go out into it.

By the way I don't really have anything against Sun though my preference is HP-UX. To me UNIX is UNIX (even Linux is UNIX in that sense) so as long as I'm gainfully employed as a System Admin I don't moan about which variant/distro my employer chooses. I quite happily worked in a Sun only shop for 19 months until that contract limit was reached.

Some of the ones I've run across:

Qnix
Xenix
AT&T
SCO
NCR
AIX
Astrix
HP-UX
Tandem
Dynix
Caldera
RedHat
Debian
FreeBSD

I'm sure there are some I've worked on I've left out. For a while it seemed like everyone had their own variant of UNIX but these pale in number to plethora of Linux distros in the world.

Hell I've even done PC support for DOS/Windows and IBM System 34/36 and AS400 support. The great thing about working in this industry is it is constantly changing.

P.S. Of course I'm hoping to be retired before the 2038 end of epoch hits.

P.P.S. "Mostly history" - I thought so as well but the fact that someone in this very thread indicated he had recently been given "cosmic ray" as an excuse proves Sun didn't learn from that history.

Last edited by MensaWater; 03-09-2007 at 08:49 AM.
 
Old 03-09-2007, 08:42 AM   #56
trashbird1240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlliagre
By curiosity, how do you measure the respective costs of Linux and Solaris ?
I mean your Linux distro is very likely to be downloadable for free, while Solaris surely is, so how is one more expensive than the other ?
Is it media cost ? formal support ? learning curve ?
I'll answer your post before I get to everybody else's. First off, when I started using Linux, I was unaware that Solaris was free. I'm curious too about how I missed that with all the reading I did, however by now I'm hooked on Slackware. I could change later, who knows, I try to avoid forming allegiances.

Secondly, cost is a lot less of an issue than my comments made it sound. I've downloaded Slackware to try out at home, and then when I wanted it at work, I went to my supervisor and said "We can get this for free, but I think we should buy it since we're an academic institution and we have $40 to spare." He agreed (and I think the idea of "free" was lost on him, I think he thought I meant something else).

The point of that little parable was that IT'S ALWAYS CHEAPER THAN BUYING ANOTHER MAC, which was the alternative that they offered me when I said I'd gone as far as I could go with Window$. At least they'd heard of Linux, although if I'd gone to them and said "I want to use Solaris," they would have known just as much.

Now, the next advantage for Linux is, superficial as this may sound, it's popular. I can always go somewhere to find stuff for it.

Now, if you're thinking I am a brain-washed penguin, consider this: I was really sold on installing FreeBSD as a home system and I struggled with it for a whole weekend and found that I was just too inexperienced. What I had, rather than experience, was a whole stack of LiveCDs that I knew worked with my hardware, and one in particular that had a supportive, friendly user community (PCLinuxOS). FreeBSD has a supportive, friendly community, too, however I had to boot up one of those Linux LiveCDs to get to them. It took several days for the irony to hit me. FreeBSD was just wrong for my hardware. I could make it as a less experienced user with Linux. Now thanks to Linux, I know a lot more and I could probably install and administrate FreeBSD or Solaris just fine.

And I have Belenix and I think it's really cool.

Now, on to all these other posts...
Joel

Last edited by trashbird1240; 03-09-2007 at 08:44 AM.
 
Old 03-09-2007, 08:50 AM   #57
trashbird1240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlightner

Funny over the weekend I happened to overhear a conversation in which one person was saying to another "Yeah, but you can't run Solaris on x86". I didn't butt in because the other person let him know he was actually running on x86. I think most people still think of Solaris as "commercial". (Of course even in commercial versions they had it available for x86.)
Oh yeah? If you think that's funny, dig this:

I was at Barnes and NOble, looking at programming books and was in the Unix section with all the "unleashed" books. These two hip young guys (could have been two years younger or two years older than me) in tight jeans and horn-rimmed glasses came by. I'm lookin' at these guys with their Starbuck's coffee and thinkin' "Wow, these guys have real jobs!" and there I am with my 268-day beard and wrestling a baby and a 1300 page book on shell programming...

One guy says: "What's solaris anyway?"
Other guys says: "I think it's a kind of Linux."

When I heard that, I thought about this thread, since my initial reaction was to blurt out "It's not Linux, it's Unix!"

Joel
 
Old 03-09-2007, 09:06 AM   #58
MensaWater
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Quote:
268-day beard
I first started my beard back in 1992 (right after leaving the Hotel industry which didn't allow one to have them). However unlike ZZ Top I do regularly trim it.

Your quote reminded me of a Dilbert strip about Computer Holy Wars:
Dilbert meets a guy and says:
"That beard, those suspenders. You're one of those condescending UNIX guys!"
The UNIX guy responds:
"Here's a nickle - buy yourself a REAL computer."

P.S. I don't wear suspenders...
 
  


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