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rhimbo 01-16-2020 01:10 AM

Should I dump my iMac for Linux or Windows on the desktop...?
 
Hi folks,

Lately I've been thinking that I won't buy another Mac. I'm debating what to use for my "desktop." I would very much like your comments and opinions to my thoughts below or just your independent ideas on desktop environments.

Reasons I love my Mac. Apple Mail beats any other mail client I've used (search, for one thing). Thunderbird is a joke. Outlook should be pitied (search effectively doesn't work).

Google is evil, but their browser works well. Firefox took money from Google years ago and I don't trust them either.

I love Open Office, but it can't work with .docx, .xlsx and .pptx. So I feel I still need a Windows 10 desktop ('cause Windows does not run atop a VM... intentionally by M$).

I love Gimp.

Linux on the desktop is a toy. Yeah I used to be an old Unix hack and love bash, but I'm not a sysadmin and don't want to spend weeks configuring system utilities, volumes, backups, etc. I must admit using Time Machine on my Mac is effortless, and I have double external hard drive backups.

I could run Windows 10 and cygwin. So I could have a "decent" mail client (Outlook, although far from perfect), a nice touch screen for signing documents using a real signature (which I have to do a lot), etc.

I'm leaning towards Windows 10 with cygwin. That being said, I'm scared as my buddies who are techies tell me each update breaks their systems.

I have Ubuntu on a 5-year old Lenova right now. It's been very challenging to convince myself that it would suffice as a daily use desktop system.

I am not a Windows person at all. I'm not even sure how easy it is to do regular backups of disks and file systems to external drives. That's a critical piece for me. But I'm not sure how to do it (easily, as in via a nice GUI app) on Linux either. In that area, I think Mac OS shines.

So... without flaming me, please, I am seriously interested in your input, feedback, comments and suggestions.

Thanks,

Turbocapitalist 01-16-2020 03:07 AM

Vista10 is by far the most awkward and hard to use out of those choices. So I'd say to avoid it and that your main option is some flavor of GNU/Linux.

Which desktop environment are you using with Ubuntu at the moment? There are others which may be more comfortable. There are also other distros. Pop!OS is based on Ubuntu but it has a very OS X -like desktop enviornment.

Give up on OpenOffice.org it has been intentionally neglected by Oracle. Try LibreOffice instead, that's where all the OOo developers went anyway. It has support for legacy file formats like the ones that are giving you trouble. However keep in mind that M$ maintains its productivity software monopoly by fiddling with the formats so that no other group or company can easily use them. So if you can, upgrade to the OpenDocument Format. Another option there is Calligra. It is quite different so I prefer LibreOffice but if I were starting out I would probably use Calligra instead.

As for the mail client, I can't imagine anyone finding Outlook usable, so you might take my advice there with a grain of salt. There you have Thunderbird or Sylpheed. I prefer the former. Note that Thunderbird will soon integrate OpenPGP support into the main application and the Enigmail add-on will EOL. However, that is still more than a few months away.

There are ways to get Vista10 into a VM and there are many guides online for that. If you really have a either a perceived or real need for Vista10, then run it inside a proper VM and not on bare metal. That way you can take snapshots of the last-known-good clean installation and roll back to that with a click when, not if, it curdles.

There are many graphical backup utilities, and there is even a third-party graphical interface for the commercial backup service Tarsnap. But I am lazy and prefer rsync via the shell instead so others here can address the graphical backup utilities.

rhimbo 01-16-2020 03:27 AM

Many thanks, Turbocapitalist. To be honest, I would prefer to avoid M$ entirely. Yes, the intentionally make .docx, .xlsx and .pptx difficult to read and parse with all the binary stuff and active X controls. I will try LibreOffice. Honestly I haven't given it a fair chance as I found it very disappointing several years ago and OpenOffice had many more "built-in" features. So I didn't look at LibreOffice again for a while. And what the heck, I can try Calligra as well.

I also will admit that I might not have given Thunderbird a fair chance. But I did try it on Ubuntu when I replaced Windows with Ubuntu on my ThinkPad. Perhaps I didn't play with it enough but I found the formatting of messages to be quite limited (font, spacing, just the kind of stuff one expects to be standard with any WYSIWYG editor in a window). But I'll try it again. In that way I found Outlook more fully featured. But generally Outlook is awful; I agree. Send/receive never works right. The search feature is ghastly, and so on.... OH, and I'll try Sylpheed as well.

Honestly, I only tried to put Windows on top of VirtualBox. Perhaps I need a better VM. ;-)

I will look into backing up more. Now that I look at my original post I realize I mislead readers. I am more eager to avoid going back to spending my time being a sysadmin configuring my system, creating file systems, hand-editing /etc/fstab files and stuff like that. It's fun and I don't mind re-learning all that stuff, but it's just a matter of time and getting on with all the other stuff we have to do. That's the one thing I have to say I like about macOS... lots of nice GUI utilities that make managing the system easy.

OK, so I will try out what you have suggested. As I already have Ubuntu on my ThinkPad, I'll try to enhance it and see if I can get to a state where I can easily do all the things I want to do. First thing is connect an external drive and transfer all my files from my iMac. If I can prove I can manage that robustly, back up my system properly, that's the first big step for me.

Thanks again for taking the time to write a detailed reply....

mrmazda 01-16-2020 03:28 AM

My old mid-2007 iMac has El Capitan and two openSUSE versions. It spends most of its time collecting dust waiting to find a buyer for it. I've spent an insane amount of time scattered over the past three weeks getting a 2013 iMac usable again after its aged original owner was no longer able to help with password and AppleID issues, ultimately involving wiping the HD, then installing Mavericks in order to upgrade to El Capitan in order to upgrade to Catalina. Apple makes it easy, and hard, or impossible, depending on one's needs and wants. My friend with two Minis he's been using since he switched from XP to Mac in 2006 can't figure out how to make one of the two Apple Mail apps fetch since his ISP made some configuration changes. I tried to help, but couldn't do it either. I've been using Mozilla since it was called Netscape 2, running on OS/2, on Linux for the past decade, called SeaMonkey since the Mozilla fork called Firefox decided Internet app integration was a thing of the past. Linux, and SeaMonkey, work for me. I have two PCs with Win10. Win10 gets a little more uptime than my iMac mainly because it spends so much time rebooting and installing more updates, which is to say very little. Good things can be said about both Mac OS and Windows 10, but I'd hate to be forced to depend on either. Their appeal disintegrates when adjusted for use with eyesight well beyond teenage years. They aren't well made for adjusting to aged eyes, or much other adjusting beyond pretty but useless desktop wallpaper or custom rodent pointers. I rarely see a desktop. My 8 Linux desktops are covered by open apps. Recovery from backup in the rare instances it is necessary, is quick, because configuration is in plain text files, easy to copy and relatively easy to understand, so that only the tiny bit need can be restored instead of a whole OS if only a small disruption occurred. In Linux the DE is pretty much divorced from the OS, so I can upgrade the underlying OS whilst needing to change the way I work as a consequence somewhere between negligible and none. In Linux I can read and write to filesystems neither Mac nor Windows can. In Linux I get all my software from one reliable location that has countless choices available. In Linux behind a firewall I don't need the overhead of a constantly scanning virus defense, or the pain of an updater that decides when I must wait for it to do it's thing. In Linux I don't need to replace my hardware every 6-7 years in order to maintain a safe environment.

Many things to consider. What to choose nobody can decide for you. Figure out what you can live with. If one OS can't do everything you need, do as I do, use many, just some more than others, using the others mostly as reminders why I am satisfied to have chosen the primary OS and DE that I did.

friefl 01-16-2020 03:29 AM

For backup look at Cronopete which is said to emulate Time Machine visually as well as in function.

I concur with use of Libre Office. It is what I found most useful for interoperation with Windows users. Where possible (as it often was in my role), I would hand out PDFs.

I do not use Linux desktop. I am here because I will be replacing my old Mac server with a Linux server. Like you, I am accustomed to MacOS. If I were to abandon its desktop then my view is that Linux would be much the better direction in the longer term.

rhimbo 01-16-2020 03:51 AM

Oh, I forgot to answer your question.... I'm currently running gnome desktop environment....

rhimbo 01-16-2020 04:04 AM

Thanks everyone for your detailed input. So it seems that backup has several options. I will play with LibreOffice. I will try Thunderbird again and also give Sylpheed a go.

By the way, I'm not sure if I'm using terminology incorrectly. When I say "desktop" I am thinking "window manager." Is that how the community defines these terms today?

Which window manager would you say (whoever would like to answer) is the most polished in your opinion? Because I have Ubuntu currently, I'd like to try to make it work before trying Pop!OS just to save time and effort.

Thanks everyone....

fatmac 01-16-2020 05:05 AM

I'd say go with Linux, forget MS, Apple is overpriced FreeBSD with Aqua Desktop, (if I remember right).

I've been using Linux since 1999 without any problems, so I would think that you would be OK once you get to know it.

Desktop Environments - KDE, GNOME, XFCE, etc. (I recommend XFCE).

Window Managers - IceWM, Fluxbox, i3wm, etc. (I use Fluxbox).

Geist 01-16-2020 05:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhimbo (Post 6078894)
Hi folks,

Linux on the desktop is a toy.
So... without flaming me, please, I am seriously interested in your input, feedback, comments and suggestions.

Thanks,

Ayyyyy...
Well, I guess if Linux on the desktop is a toy then your question, by process of elimination is answered, at least partially.
Go with Windows.
If you don't want to go with Windows, stay with Apple.

...until you're bored and want to play with toys...which apparently still require weeks of configuration and a degree in system administration, but you can still play then.

hazel 01-16-2020 08:21 AM

Don't be nasty, Geist! Linux is a toy (among other things). A toy is something that gives you pleasure just from fooling around with it. And the more experience you have of fooling around with it, the more fun it becomes. I can play with Linux for hours!

@rhimbo: a desktop is just a graphical user interface. Every desktop includes a window manager but the big desktops like gnome include a lot more. A window manager by itself gives you movable windows and usually a desktop menu but that's all. It's fast and sleek but pretty spartan and you usually have to configure it by hand.

If you want icons, drag and drop, graphical configuration tools and so on, you need a desktop environment or DE. Like gnome, KDE or xfce.

sevendogsbsd 01-16-2020 08:38 AM

OP: Linux on the desktop is most certainly NOT a toy. Been using Linux on the desktop for 20 years. Some Linux distros are effort-heavy to get working right some are easier than windows to set up and require zero effort to use.

I absolutely abhorr windows so will never purchase it. I do own a MacBook and will stick with Apple for my laptop needs because it works very well. But...for my main PC, it will always be Linux or one of the BSDs because I have been immersed in open source for 2 decades now and am not going to ever stop. There is so much flexibility and choice there.

If you like apple, stick with that. If you need "office" and don't mind paying for it, I am pretty sure Microsoft has a subscription for their online office product now.

boughtonp 01-16-2020 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhimbo (Post 6078894)
Lately I've been thinking that I won't buy another Mac.

Your post appears to contain lots of reasons for why you should stick with Mac OS, and none for why you shouldn't?


Turbocapitalist 01-16-2020 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhimbo (Post 6078924)
When I say "desktop" I am thinking "window manager." Is that how the community defines these terms today?

Thinking "window manager" but meaning "desktop environment" :)

The window manager and desktop environment are two different things. The former is basically the widget set for and drawing your windows, buttons to maximize/minimize/resize/reposition, edges and borders, and small stuff like that, though some might also include a little eye candy like wobbly windows, cube rotation, and other animations. You can run one alone if you like. Openbox, Compiz, and FVWM are three popular ones out of many. A desktop environment runs on top of the chosen window manager and provides panels, status bars, icon sets, drag-and-drop, and smaller utilities to tweak both the DE and WM. The full desktop experience you are used to comes from running a DE on top of a WM. Pop!_OS, Unity, XFCE, and KDE Plasma are among some DEs to choose from.

If you want an experience more similar to OS X then you'll want to pay attention to your choice of desktop environment and run one on top of your distro's default window manager. You can pick a distro with the defaults you like and then swap in the parts you like better to make it closer to perfect.

vtel57 01-16-2020 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhimbo (Post 6078894)

Linux on the desktop is a toy.


Hmm... you evidently have not explored any Linux distributions in a couple decades, huh?


I've been running Slackware Linux on all my machines for nearly 15 years now. If it's just a toy, as you say, it's a very useful one.


I'm biased here, but if I was to advise you with regards to your query above, I'd tell you to forget ALL the other shit out there and find yourself a Linux distribution that is to your liking/tastes/needs and enjoy the rest of your computering life from that time on.


Luck with your choice!

rhimbo 01-16-2020 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vtel57 (Post 6079035)
Hmm... you evidently have not explored any Linux distributions in a couple decades, huh?


I've been running Slackware Linux on all my machines for nearly 15 years now. If it's just a toy, as you say, it's a very useful one.


I'm biased here, but if I was to advise you with regards to your query above, I'd tell you to forget ALL the other shit out there and find yourself a Linux distribution that is to your liking/tastes/needs and enjoy the rest of your computering life from that time on.


Luck with your choice!

Well, no, I have not done any "serious" research into options. But I did put Ubuntu on my ThinkWare about 8 months ago just hoping it would convince me to go back to Linux. When I said Linux is a toy I specifically meant that, compared to polished desktop environments like Mac OS, it required much, much more manual work to keep it running, keep it backed up, add disks, networking, partitioning, defragmentation, etc.

That being said, I did say that I was posting my question in hopes that the community would give me evidence to the contrary. The truth is, I would love to get away from Apple forever. And I hate Microsoft for many more reasons than I care to detail....

rhimbo 01-16-2020 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatmac (Post 6078938)
I'd say go with Linux, forget MS, Apple is overpriced FreeBSD with Aqua Desktop, (if I remember right).

I've been using Linux since 1999 without any problems, so I would think that you would be OK once you get to know it.

Desktop Environments - KDE, GNOME, XFCE, etc. (I recommend XFCE).

Window Managers - IceWM, Fluxbox, i3wm, etc. (I use Fluxbox).

Thank you, fatmac, for the info... That sounds promising. Yes, Apple is overpriced. Not only that, but I'm sick and tired of their arrogance and intentional surreptitious deception, lock-in, declining quality, etc. I could justify it when their laptops lasted over 10 years (as mine did).

And, just to rant a bit... why doesn't Apple have a touch screen on iMacs or laptops...? Because they want you to buy 3 devices: iMac, iPad, iPhone... and they think they're the greatest gift to the galaxy so... well, why wouldn't everyone do so...?! I'm just tired of it.

rhimbo 01-16-2020 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boughtonp (Post 6079015)
Your post appears to contain lots of reasons for why you should stick with Mac OS, and none for why you shouldn't?


Well, you're correct. But the motivation for my post was not to make a statement or to argue but to say "this is my perspective today; can someone convince me otherwise." ;-)

The truth is, I would love to get off Apple and M$ forever... forever...!

rhimbo 01-16-2020 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hazel (Post 6079002)
Don't be nasty, Geist! Linux is a toy (among other things). A toy is something that gives you pleasure just from fooling around with it. And the more experience you have of fooling around with it, the more fun it becomes. I can play with Linux for hours!

@rhimbo: a desktop is just a graphical user interface. Every desktop includes a window manager but the big desktops like gnome include a lot more. A window manager by itself gives you movable windows and usually a desktop menu but that's all. It's fast and sleek but pretty spartan and you usually have to configure it by hand.

If you want icons, drag and drop, graphical configuration tools and so on, you need a desktop environment or DE. Like gnome, KDE or xfce.

Ok, it was late at night and I wasn't thinking. Yes, I'm embarrassed. I was thinking of the old days when I used to write Xlib and Xt code and there was not the same clear delineation between desktops and window managers. Sorry.... I know you're all rolling your eyes and snorting right now... ;-)

Geist 01-16-2020 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hazel (Post 6079002)
Don't be nasty, Geist! Linux is a toy (among other things). A toy is something that gives you pleasure just from fooling around with it. And the more experience you have of fooling around with it, the more fun it becomes. I can play with Linux for hours!

Well, I kept the flame low at least :P

But yeah, anything can be a toy like that, a (CNC) milling machine can be a toy, but it's also a backbone of the industry, calling it a toy there is probably still with some reverence, while the Linux thing, at least to me, came across more dismissive.

Especially in conjunction with Windows as a software (the OS and its first party tools that come with it) and Apple hardware.
The former is, ...I don't want to say Fisher Price tier because I think FP actually cares about its products, at least I've heard really good things about its servicing, but Windows 8, Windows XP with it's babby theme.
Apple infantilizing the customer because only daddy is allowed to repair it and baby can only play with it and if baby tries to then baby gets its hide tanned.

Furthermore the flexibility of Linux desktops without any budget cuts on the 'admin stuff' just shines. There are some certain flagship/killer app weaknesses in multimedia like video editing and so forth, but that's like grumbling at driver troubles, not the fault of Linux that some vendors simply don't want to cater to it, because then the unfortunate people have to wallow in the pits of Microsoft and Apple, but I guess at least the Apple one looks more sleek.

Uninformed hubris like this rubs me the wrong way. I'm a pleb, really, I'm not a system admin, and while I can program and have worked on some not just hobby projects, I'm still low tier, not a programming genius,fatcat or pioneer, yet with Linux I feel like I am an elder god compared to my Windows days at least.

OP is trolling themselves if they think Linux desktop is just a 'toy'.
Meanwhile I'm a superhero who wiggles like three fingers a few degrees and programs spring open in a dance of efficiency, might and even elegance sometimes.
(Can't deny the more crusty look of some things... programmer art and whatnot, but it's gotten better, a lot better. Even the gimps splash screen looks good these days)

The automation, comfort, the utter at home feeling of things being tuned by myself, for myself to create the best possible experience, even when I was a total noob, I still had an easy time making even my noob adjustments, will never generate anything than a scrounged up face and a backhand wave away at the notion of going back at this point in time.

*Especially* for the Linux desktop which has been a meme for a long, long time.
Even the, what was it, IBM superbowl ads or something from a trillion years ago showed how MS and co were getting a bit sweaty under the collar.
The year of the linux desktop is still a meme, but Windows is unironic and completely sincere HELL.
I recognize flagship software, I recognize 'gotta have this for my industry job' software arguments, but that's software, not the desktop, and nothing beats Linux there.

If it's a toy, then it's the toy of the pinnacle lifeform. The same level atoms and physics are the toy of some deity, dooming anyone who shuns it to a living nightmare.

I mean, imagine unironically using windows and only first party software, IE/Edge (or whatever its name is) MsPaint which they managed to kack up, Movie Maker? Nice knowing you since it's gone.
Can't do jack diddly without an immediate injection of third party software on Windows, and Apple hardware, well, I got actual buttons for my money on my mouse,which is an ancient Mx 518 or something, I can't even remember it's name but I have been keeping that poor sodden thing alive for probably over a decade maybe even two, it wants to die, but I keep respringing its microswitches.

But now I'm digressing a bit.

Lol Windows and Apple, BWA HA HA HA HAHAHAHA HAA

rhimbo 01-16-2020 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geist (Post 6079213)
Well, I kept the flame low at least :P

But yeah, anything can be a toy like that, a (CNC) milling machine can be a toy, but it's also a backbone of the industry, calling it a toy there is probably still with some reverence, while the Linux thing, at least to me, came across more dismissive.

Especially in conjunction with Windows as a software (the OS and its first party tools that come with it) and Apple hardware.
The former is, ...I don't want to say Fisher Price tier because I think FP actually cares about its products, at least I've heard really good things about its servicing, but Windows 8, Windows XP with it's babby theme.
Apple infantilizing the customer because only daddy is allowed to repair it and baby can only play with it and if baby tries to then baby gets its hide tanned.

Furthermore the flexibility of Linux desktops without any budget cuts on the 'admin stuff' just shines. There are some certain flagship/killer app weaknesses in multimedia like video editing and so forth, but that's like grumbling at driver troubles, not the fault of Linux that some vendors simply don't want to cater to it, because then the unfortunate people have to wallow in the pits of Microsoft and Apple, but I guess at least the Apple one looks more sleek.

Uninformed hubris like this rubs me the wrong way. I'm a pleb, really, I'm not a system admin, and while I can program and have worked on some not just hobby projects, I'm still low tier, not a programming genius,fatcat or pioneer, yet with Linux I feel like I am an elder god compared to my Windows days at least.

OP is trolling themselves if they think Linux desktop is just a 'toy'.
Meanwhile I'm a superhero who wiggles like three fingers a few degrees and programs spring open in a dance of efficiency, might and even elegance sometimes.
(Can't deny the more crusty look of some things... programmer art and whatnot, but it's gotten better, a lot better. Even the gimps splash screen looks good these days)

The automation, comfort, the utter at home feeling of things being tuned by myself, for myself to create the best possible experience, even when I was a total noob, I still had an easy time making even my noob adjustments, will never generate anything than a scrounged up face and a backhand wave away at this point in time.

*Especially* for the Linux desktop which has been a meme for a long, long time.
Even the, what was it, IBM superbowl ads or something from a trillion years ago showed how MS and co were getting a bit sweaty under the collar.
The year of the linux desktop is still a meme, but Windows is unironic and completely sincere HELL.
I recognize flagship software, I recognize 'gotta have this for my industry job' software arguments, but that's software, not the desktop, and nothing beats Linux there.

If it's a toy, then it's the toy of the pinnacle lifeform. The same level atoms and physics are the toy of some deity, dooming anyone who shuns it to a living nightmare.

I mean, imagine unironically using windows and only first party software, IE/Edge (or whatever its name is) MsPaint which they managed to kack up, Movie Maker? Nice knowing you since it's gone.
Can't do jack diddly without an immediate injection of third party software on Windows, and Apple hardware, well, I got actual buttons for my money on my mouse,which is an ancient Mx 518 or something, I can't even remember it's name but I have been keeping that poor sodden thing alive for probably over a decade maybe even two, it wants to die, but I keep respringing its microswitches.

But now I'm digressing a bit.

Lol Windows and Apple, BWA HA HA HA HAHAHAHA HAA


Well, I would not say I was trolling. It was not my intention to denigrate Linux or offend anyone. Perhaps it was not the best choice of words. My intention was to highlight the difference between an environment that requires almost no "management" versus those that require more manual effort to keep it running and provide a platform to use professionally on a daily basis for general computing needs.

I acknowledged -- nay, even offered -- that I have been away from Linux for quite a while so no one need be offended by my statement. And, as I said, that is the reason for my post.

Moreover, I was referring to Linux on the desktop. Obviously it's better in the data center. And why wouldn't it be? It is standing on the shoulders of the giants who created Unix and variants.

I also said that I would love to ditch M$ and Apple as well. In addition to other reasons I mentioned, I hate the fact that Apple "integrates" (a polite euphemism) every component so you cannot service your own machine, cannot replace components, etc. on all their equipment... iMac, laptops, iPhone.

I do enjoy "playing with toys" when I have the time. But here is some context for you. When I'm spending 13 hours each week in-flight, not counting other transit time, and the boss says "shut the hell up and go 'cause the client is on the other side of the continent so that's where you're going..." I really have very little time, if any, to "play" or explore regardless of how much I might enjoy doing so under different circumstances.

And it's been years since I have had to do my own sysadmin on my desktop Sparc 1+ (back in the '90s when we had to do a fair amount of sysadmin on our own desktop workstations). And even then, I certainly would not consider myself to have been a real sysadmin. In fact, except for the actual sysadmins at the company, not many of us were really "good enough" at configuring NFS, volume management in Solaris, setting up networking, setting up security, account management after Sun introduced Solaris, etc. to guarantee that we could work unhindered. It was fine to "play" when you knew that you could just pick up the phone and call one of those sysadmin stud-factors who could fix any friggen problem; those guys were great.

Moreover, I've been away from it for a while. I spend my days reviewing architecture diagrams in boring meetings. I do lots of presentations for clueless executives. So, again, for context, there would be a ramp-up required for me to get to the point where I could troubleshoot configuration and sysadmin issues. That's why I said that I was hoping to find a combination of desktop, window manager, admin tools, etc. to minimize the manual effort required. Despite my interest, I just don't have much time to spend for my primary work platform.

As I said early on, I have been away from Linux for a while. But when I used it previously, it was no way near as "polished" with respect to utilities, configuration, management or general sysadmin as Mac OS. I never compared it to Windows. I only said that Outlook seemed to give more options for formatting mail messages than Thunderbird (but acknowledged that it was entirely possible that I didn't play with Thunderbird enough to give it a fair chance to impress me).

It's one thing to need to keep a system up and running because you're expected to be working 10 hours a day on it. It's another story entirely when you have the luxury of coming back to a problem at your leisure because your job doesn't depend on that system being up and running. And that's the main context and impetus for my original query.

And just for the record lest anyone thinks I'm denigrating Linux or the Linux (or Unix) community.... I am an advocate of "Unix." I hate M$ and Windows. I grew up with Unix starting freshmen year in college when we did our Lisp programming assignments on a PDP 11-70. I worked at Sun Microsystems for 15 years as a systems and application programmer.

I hate M$ and recently I hate Apple (although I've hated Steve Jobs for decades). I could tell you all lots of stories about very nitty gritty detail of things M$ did to break standards. I was working on low-level library development of the JDK at Sun and I was deposed by armies of attorneys when Sun sued M$. And what didn't even get much press was all the things M$ was doing beyond the Java world. But those stories are for another time.

So, back to the original impetus of my first post, I am looking for an environment, window manager, combination of tools (external disk configuration, backup, defragmentation, "office" utilities such as mail, etc.) that will enable me to work as productively as I can on my iMac without requiring a lot of explicit manual intervention. Many folks have replied here with great suggestions and pointers, and I will follow up on those.

But this post is really to disabuse anyone from thinking that my intention was to denigrate Linux or the community in general.

Anyway, thank you all for your suggestions. I appreciate it. I'll start exploring....

boughtonp 01-16-2020 05:15 PM

So in short your actual question is "I like Mac OS but not Apple, what distro is closest/easiest to get working to the same standard?"

And your key features are:
* Mail client like Apple Mail, with good search.
* An office suite that handles Microsoft's formats.
* A backup solution as effortless as Time Machine.
* A touch screen for signing documents with a real signature.
* The ability to update without being scared of breakages.

Right?

vtel57 01-16-2020 05:26 PM

Well, you have the mainline Linuxes: Debian, Slackware, RedHat, Mandriva, etc. These are all good distros. Some require more attention to install/run/maintain than others.

Then you have the popular Windows refugee distros: Ubuntu, Mint, etc. These are useful, kinda' pretty, and don't require much (if any) fumbling around under the hood. They're designed to appeal to users coming over from Windows.

Lastly, are tons of not-so-well-known distributions that are a combination of difficult, easy, pretty, not-so-pretty, etc.

You'll have to hunt around to find yourself a nice balance. Some are pretty damned polished these days, though. :)

rhimbo 01-16-2020 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boughtonp (Post 6079255)
So in short your actual question is "I like Mac OS but not Apple, what distro is closest/easiest to get working to the same standard?"

And your key features are:
* Mail client like Apple Mail, with good search.
* An office suite that handles Microsoft's formats.
* A backup solution as effortless as Time Machine.
* A touch screen for signing documents with a real signature.
* The ability to update without being scared of breakages.

Right?

Well put...! Thank you...!

Yes, I will try LibreOffice. I can easily find a plethora of laptops (Dell, Lenova either professional ThinkPad line or just Lenova consumer line, and others) with a nice touch screen. I presume Linux drivers have support for recognizing the touch screens and supporting all the things like Adobe Docusign, Adobe Acrobat Reader, etc...

With respect to sysadmin type stuff, when I said "manual work to config and keep the system running," I should have given this example: I would greatly prefer to avoid having to go fire up vi to hand edit /etc/fstab when configuring a new disk, volume or partition. If I had a nice GUI to do it, wonderful.

And, although I did very much enjoy writing sh, ksh, bash scripts in my previous life, writing make files, etc., I do not want to rely on that to do a backup of critical files on my professional system. I have no problem (in fact would enjoy) going back and re-immersing myself in man pages to re-learn all that stuff in my leisure. For example, before boarding my flight back to California from London recently, I installed cygwin on my Windows 7 machine in order to easily backup all of my important files (several GB worth) to my Ubuntu system using scp. And, it was easier to do via a bash command than to get WinSCP working.

I just don't want to be doing stuff like that for critical work.

So, @boughtonp, thank you, you hit the nail on the head.... ;-)

Geist 01-17-2020 01:19 AM

I getcha, especially with the "little time" aspect,etc, but Windows at least is a HUGE timesink too. Especially if you reinstall it and, nowadays, with all that telemetry.

I mean, the fact that you used Apple products DOES put you ahead of the curve somewhat, it is *nix, too, after all, but imagine being a total and utter 'tech illiterate' and even something like 'sticky keys' triggers because how goes it? Hit shift five times or hold shift for a bit?

Well, there actually is a (granted, jokey, it's a shoebox with cheap plastic figures and a few coins in it) shrine...to me, to myself in Arlington Texas because I once was the savior of the family computer of an online friend where that exactly happened.
(Among other problems I fixed in one go)

This 'accessibility' option completely ruined the ability for the entire FAMILY of my friend to use the computer, and that's just one aspect of it, one aspect of many.
Etc, I could go on, but it's so bad, that had I not made such a snarky and haughty reply and instead went "Enjoy windows then" then the sheer bad karma of that thing would have made even that into a cursed reply.

It's just that many people deal with the awfulness of Windows so much because they have literally nothing else (not even macOS, much less any Linux distro) that they kind of forget how much maintenance it really needs.

It's also the reason why so many scammers can run the tech support scams, they're believable enough to work at least sometimes.
The users don't know, Windows is such a hunkajunk that they believe it. If Windows were better, this would happen less.

P.S.:
I realize that Linux as a whole new experience is probably more daunting than dealing with sticky keys, but most of Linux stuff is paid up front and then it usually works for a long, long time.
Plus, if it finally became the standard OS then we'd see THAT in schools and whatnot.

hazel 02-01-2020 09:55 AM

You don't need to use vim to edit your configuration files. Linux has loads of graphical editors.

You can run the acrobat reader in Linux but nobody bothers because there are plenty of other pdf readers available. And I bet there's a Linux equivalent for Docusign too.

vmelkon 11-21-2020 06:15 PM

I use Kubuntu. I use it because I have a Windows background. Windows took a bad turn with Win 8, Win 8.1 and Win 10, so it was time for me to move elsewhere. I still run Win 7 to play Battlefield 1. I bought a few Linux native games. I also do programming.

I would say Linux has come a long way. It has more roadway to make but it was time for me to switch now.

“keep it backed up”

==I suppose you just need to copy your home folder to an external disk or something, which is what I do.
The location is /home/your_user_name
There are some hidden folders in there as well.
All other folders don’t matter. They are OS and app related.

“add disks,”

==In Kubuntu, you connect the disk and it shows up in Dolphin, which is the file manager thing. I guess, then you have to mount it to a folder. I’ve never done it.

“networking”

==What do you mean?

“partitioning”

==That’s something that you would do during installation of Linux and only if you want to run multiple OSes.

“defragmentation”

==I don’t think we defragment under Linux. Nobody defragments under Windows anymore. That was a thing done in 1995.

You should probably get yourself an empty PC, install some flavor of Linux, expertiment and come here and ask questions. That way, you build up knowledge by sucking the brains of the fine gentlemen in these forums.

“Apple Mail beats any other mail client I've used”

==Maybe there is the WINE equivalent for MacOS and you could run Apple Mail on Linu*?

“Outlook should be pitied (search effectively doesn't work).”

==It works. It uses Windows Indexer which has a tendency to break.

“I have Ubuntu on a 5-year old Lenova right now”

==I recommend downloading the latest ISO or previous one.

~~~~vmelkon

cynwulf 11-23-2020 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vmelkon (Post 6187646)
“partitioning”

==That’s something that you would do during installation of Linux and only if you want to run multiple OSes.

That's not what partitions are primarily used for, nor what they were originally devised for.

https://tldp.org/HOWTO/Partition/intro.html#explanation
Quote:

Why have multiple partitions?

Encapsulate your data. Since file system corruption is local to a partition, you stand to lose only some of your data if an accident occurs.

Increase disk space efficiency. You can format partitions with varying block sizes, depending on your usage. If your data is in a large number of small files (less than 1k) and your partition uses 4k sized blocks, you are wasting 3k for every file. In general, you waste on average one half of a block for every file, so matching block size to the average size of your files is important if you have many files.

Limit data growth. Runaway processes or maniacal users can consume so much disk space that the operating system no longer has room on the hard drive for its bookkeeping operations. This will lead to disaster. By segregating space, you ensure that things other than the operating system die when allocated disk space is exhausted.
Quote:

Originally Posted by vmelkon (Post 6187646)
“defragmentation”

==I don’t think we defragment under Linux. Nobody defragments under Windows anymore. That was a thing done in 1995.

NTFS is subject to fragmentation. So defragmentation still goes on in Windows, but it's usually scheduled and runs in the background.

igadoter 01-06-2021 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhimbo (Post 6079202)
it required much, much more manual work to keep it running, keep it backed up, add disks, networking, partitioning, defragmentation, etc.

Networking under most desktops is nowadays manged by NetworkManager which in practice means clicking small icon on panel - and here you are - ethernet, wifi, for partitionning is gparted - but all these are gui tools - sorry defragmentation - oops - no such thing at all under Linux - just not needed. There are simple up to very sophisticated file systems under Linux - choose one by your own - which suits you best - or at all go with lvm which should make adding disks very easy - desktop under Linux a toy? well we can talk about this if you connect four external monitors to have nice large desktop to work with. Definitely your picture of Linux is very limited - it runs from small embedded systems up to supercomputers. Fifty top distributions from Distrowatch are all desktops - which means they ship desktop you can work on - Gnome, Plasma, Cinnamon, Xfce - lightweight desktops like lxde - window managers - say fluxbox etc. - but for some distribution are so-called default desktops - which means installed as default desktop - or user can change this default choice during installation. I am sure you will be satisfied running Linux - there are even desktop themes making your desktop to look like Mac - but it will require a little of time to play with and to decide what do you like best - here always a place whatever problems you may encounter.


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