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Old 06-19-2005, 09:28 AM   #16
sekelsenmat
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Quote:
Originally posted by rjlee
This is a big problem with cut-down distros like SuSE Linux Personal Edition, which doesn't even ship with a C compiler, thus limiting you to what's on the CD or to even more huge downloads.
Arg ... not even c compiler rsss. I was actually trying to say that Mandriva free beer is *not* an striped down distro, because the earlier posts in this thread seamed to lead in this direction.

Quote:
Conversely, there is an argument that says that using closed-source software is against the spirit of Free (Speech) Software, so we should not be using accelerated nvidia drivers and so on anyway (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/why-free.html).
Closed-source is often bad for linux. Flash for instance doesn't have a linux version, gif patents were a problem, but there are also successfull stories, like cedega =) I think that radical thoughts are often ..... incompatible with the real world.

Quote:
Another argument is that no distro is full unless you can do anything with it, out of the box, with no programming. I've yet to see a version of any OS that can control a real-life Mars Lander, for example. It really all depends on what you mean by “full”. [/B]
Then there would be no full distros at all rsss ... I could cheat and say: It's not a full distro unless I can do CAD for free with it!!

I meant full compared to other major distros ...

Talking about full, I read that Microsoft released a Windows XP Starter Edition that is so stripped down that it is even programmed not to allow more then 3 programs being executed at the same time!!! SUHSUAHUSHAusahshuasauhsauhsauh ..... and they tried to sell this to the brazilian governament cheap computers program (PC Conectado) =( Thank god we did not buy it.
 
Old 06-19-2005, 09:03 PM   #17
floppywhopper
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I think the term "full distro" is very misleading
full of "what"
what has confused me until very recently is why
don't "full distros" work on the internet
eg Java, flash etc
and to answer "someone" else's comment
I have a 4 CD version of Mandrake 10.0 official
which I understood to be a full distro
but it was still a download edition
and missing all the things I need
this is confusing to newbies
in fact why even make available on the net
a distro which wont function properly on the net ?
I have plenty of Mandrakes from Magazine covers
that simply are no good on the net - hopeless
but are full of other stuff

anyway I solved my little problem
10.0 worked well but no java, flash etc
10.1 had java etc but very buggy
easy reinstall 10.0 and add the 10.1 DVD
as a software medium in the MCC
and pinch all the software off that
for my 10.0 install
Java, Flash, Real Player, Super Tux
cool

floppy
 
Old 06-19-2005, 10:55 PM   #18
sekelsenmat
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Quote:
Originally posted by floppywhopper
10.0 worked well but no java, flash etc
10.1 had java etc but very buggy
easy reinstall 10.0 and add the 10.1 DVD
I can't possibly agree. Windows also does not come with Java from what I remember. It's just a question of opening a site that has a flash plugin. Ohhhh I can't see the plugin! Click the flash, you will be taken to a download page. Download Flash. Install Flash. Open the site again. That makes a distro full of professional software like gimp, k3b, openoffice and more be bad????
 
Old 06-20-2005, 07:52 AM   #19
floppywhopper
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Just to correct you there sekelsenmat
I have and use a number of ( legal ) copies of Win 98
they do come with java and flash
albeit early versions
so that one is obliged to update them

this letter to the editor to APC magazine july 2005 P27
highlights what I'm trying to say
quote
"Perhaps the major use for home and enthusiast's computers is the internet. When a potential Linux enthusiast coming from the windows world finds out their linux distro can't be used for the internet, they will go straight back where they came from. This is a pity because it is the internet where Linux excels."
unquote

The problem is that newbies aren't always aware that to surf the net there are some proprietary apps like java and flash that aren't included on their favourite distro which make for some the internet unusable. And if you are on dial-up downloading the apps could well push one over the download limit or take so long to be unworkable. Its letters like the one above that put people off without even trying or being aware what the real problem is.

I dont mind paying for Linux, but when I bought a copy of Mandrake 10.0 official there was no disclaimer that it was the download version nor that it didnt include java etc and this is not being explained to newbies when they first start out. If it were I think a lot would immediately go for the versions that do include java etc.

If I can pick up a magazine that includes on the cover disks - Java, flash etc for windows then why not those apps for linux.

floppy
 
Old 06-20-2005, 07:00 PM   #20
tkedwards
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I don't know about Win98 because I haven't installed that for a while but I can tell you for sure that Windows XP DOES NOT come with Java or Flash at all. They have to be downloaded manually and installed just like on the download editions of Linux. The fact is that even these free download editions of Linux have loads more software by default than Windows - office suites, cd burning, powerful image editing and so on by default not to mention that they're default web browsers are perfectly capable of accessing the internet.

You're completely wrong in saying that a Linux distro can't be used for the internet - its in fact at least as capable, if not more so than a Windows computer after a default install.
 
Old 06-20-2005, 07:26 PM   #21
rjlee
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Quote:
Originally posted by tkedwards
You're completely wrong in saying that a Linux distro can't be used for the internet - its in fact at least as capable, if not more so than a Windows computer after a default install.
This depends on the distro, and goes back to the question of what a full distro actually is (and also the question of what the Internet actually is — the world wide web is only one application of thousands), and begs the question of what the default install options are.

For example, http://distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=firewalls lists many distros that are fully-featured firewalls and routers, but I wouldn't choose to run an IRC relay (for example) on most of them. Most don't even ship with a GUI to run a flash– and java-enabled web browser. But they are all still “full” working distros; some are just specialised.

Going back to the original question: the free Mandriva download edition is not a full version of Mandriva insofar as some closed-source software is missed out. But it is a full operating system, in that you can run programs and interact with your computer without needing any additional software.
 
Old 06-20-2005, 08:57 PM   #22
floppywhopper
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Barna
here is a couple of french sites, dont know if they contain forums

http://www.linuxfrench.net/

http://linuxfr.org/pub/

rjlee said
Going back to the original question: the free Mandriva download edition is not a full version of Mandriva insofar as some closed-source software is missed out. But it is a full operating system, in that you can run programs and interact with your computer without needing any additional software.

totally agree
whether windows comes with java etc is beside the point, the point is that newbies are being led to believe that their distro will do everything when it may not, particularly with regards to the internet. As this is a site where those who can help those who cant yet, it is instructive for us to remember some points
1./ not everyone has access to broadband, sites like easyurpm are not everyones solution.
2./ newbies arent always aware of issues such as java flash etc, there has to be a better solution than just saying download and install. I for one am going to contact some of the Australian magazines and ask if they can include java and flash for windows then how about linux too.

live long and prosper everybody
floppy
 
Old 06-20-2005, 10:00 PM   #23
tkedwards
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Quote:
whether windows comes with java etc is beside the point
You say that now but that's not the argument you were using before. You were saying that Windows does come with Java and Flash and that Linux distros are not capable of accessing the net properly because they don't.

Quote:
newbies are being led to believe that their distro will do everything
By who? Where on the Mandriva site or anywhere like that does it say that the distro can do 'everything':
http://www.mandriva.com/products/101/discovery
http://www.mandrivalinux.com/en/features.php3

All I can see there is the usual jazzy marketing speak saying that its capable of being able to access the internet, edit office documents and so on, nothing about it doing everything. This is the same stuff you get on Microsoft's or Suse's or whoever's product pages and considering that Mandriva is as capable at accessing the net as those 2 its quite reasonable.
 
Old 06-21-2005, 04:02 AM   #24
RoofRabbit
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Windows 2000 Professional comes with 4 games (same ones that have been around forever), a couple of simple text editors, a flakey browser and the most hacker targeted email client ever and that's about it for a "full" system.

I can't say much about Windows XP since I got tired of the headaches of dealing with it's problems and refuse to ever run it again.

Mandriva on the other hand has more games, programs and utilities than I can count as well as a complete development system. I can handle many file types that windows will only complain about unless you install more "you pay for it" software. I can do a screen capture from a dvd and get something more than a big black box for a picture after saving it to a file (windows users know what I mean). And that's the download version of Mandriva!!!

Be thankful for what you can get for free in Linux, most of you paid for windows and didn't whine about not getting more with it.
 
Old 06-21-2005, 04:12 PM   #25
setlec_seta
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2 things to say:

first thing sorry to have been rude in my previous post. Really i'm sorry for the bad behavior...

Second thing is the Microshift has not ever edited an OS with java/flash integrated. The alternative Os distributor have a java client but is not so ... hmmm... operational! Also the GNU/linux distributors have ever include in their OS lots of tools for programing, comunication, gaming, and others kind of software. Everything u need, u got in the GNU/linux distributions download edition or free edition (US$ 0 ) except the non free(meaning freedom) software like java, flash....
 
Old 06-21-2005, 06:00 PM   #26
Maldain
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Just have to pipe up on this one. We use the 3 cd version of Mandrake 9.2 (old pre-Mandriva name change stuff) I was able to get a plugin for flash and a full install of java off the web just like I had to do for my XP system. Both installs were straight rpms and were very easy using urpmi. As for the contention that the 3 cd install is somehow lacking that's just not true. You can surf the net right out of the box on a fresh install. True you might have to do install some plug ins but then that's a small price to pay for having a system that doesn't cost you a dime and gives you a whole host of features that you'd have to pay thousands of dollars for to get the same functionality with M$. I don't see the problem.
 
Old 06-21-2005, 07:18 PM   #27
rkettle
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yawn... it is a 'full' 'free' open source distro... end of story... nvidia etc are closed source... man alive!!! Go moan at MS because it does not come with drivers etc. And before any lamers come on about MS driver support, I install hundreds of them and it aint that good.

Regards
Richard
 
  


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