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Old 08-27-2019, 11:14 AM   #1
hazel
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What about a permanent systemd thread?


We have a permanent thread for religion, because it is liable to ignite flame wars. Keeping all that stuff in one unending thread simplifies life for people who are not interested in the matter and do not wish to read about it or contribute to it.

Systemd rouses equally strong passions. Every now and then, someone starts a systemd thread that quickly bursts into flames. These threads tend to pollute various different forums. Having just one thread (I suggest in Linux - General) would corral all this passion, and the mods could shut down any attempts at a breakout.
 
Old 08-27-2019, 12:04 PM   #2
jsbjsb001
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While I can understand why you suggest that; I'd fear that would invite more flame wars, rather then suppress them. I'm not sure just keeping it all in the one thread is going to really help - it certainly won't stop those that insist on having an endless debate about it. Most people here can have a reasonable debate without flaming others, it's the few that can't handle people disagreeing with them.

I personally, refuse to respond any further to the latest systemd debates because of the few that are more interested in flaming those that don't agree with them. In the latest systemd debate in the Slackware forum; I don't blame the OP, who did try their best to keep the thread on track, and respectful, and it was an honest question. But it was a few of the later posters that turned a meaningful debate into yet another flame war from what I saw. Again, I refuse to respond to that thread anymore.

In the case of the latest systemd thread in the Linux - General forum; The OP seemed to regard people asking valid questions as "trolls" and/or those posters deliberately "going off-topic to derail their thread". Then I had another member accusing me of "picking on the OP" for making valid clarifications (which other members also made, not just myself) and asking valid questions that even one of the mods (after being reported, along with another member by the OP) agreed were valid questions. I'll also state here that I do believe that same thread was in fact started because the OP of that thread didn't like the responses in the other thread in the Slackware forum. If I'm honestly wrong about that, then fine, I'm happy to be wrong, but I get the feeling I'm not.

I guess the lesson is: most people who had strong opinions about systemd before, still very much have strong opinions and nothing much (if anything) has changed. So why even bother talking about it? Personally, I see no point in doing that anymore.

It's sad that a few who should be adult enough to have an honest discussion, without a flame war, just can't help themselves and spoil it for those that can stick to the topic and debate solely on the subject at hand. What a shame.

My
 
Old 08-27-2019, 02:23 PM   #3
fatmac
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Unfortunately, it is being used by several of the established distros, & looks like it's here to stay.

So it should remain in the general area for discussion, I believe.

I just hope that I can continue to have a distro, (the one that I use), that doesn't use it, for my personal computing needs.
 
Old 08-27-2019, 09:50 PM   #4
frankbell
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I agree with jsbjsb001. I do not think a permanent SystemD thread is warranted.

As an aside, in my view, much of the discussion of SystemD is not based on the pros and cons of or on the usage of SystemD, but rather on individuals' emotional distaste for change or dislike of SystemD's primary developer or both.

This does not mean I'm a SystemD fan. I'm just sayin'.
 
Old 08-27-2019, 10:01 PM   #5
scasey
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A couple of thoughts, hazel:
If your idea is to create a thread where the flame wars can "be", sounds like General (not Linux - General) is the forum for that...no post count credit, no rep capability (ish). Otherwise, it's not a bad idea.

Otherwise, I agree with frankbell: It is what it is.
For me, it's less painful to learn to use it than to change Linux flavors to avoid it.
 
Old 08-28-2019, 04:31 AM   #6
cynwulf
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It's a bad idea, because it will be seen by some as an admission from the forum administration that systemd can only be discussed in a puerile fashion, inevitably leading to "flaming", etc. This will lead to the perception of a "pro-systemd" stance from the forum admin/staff and will limit legitimate criticism of systemd and similar.

systemd debates will be ongoing - those who use condescending language and attempt to shut down the debates are just as bad as those making any of the other argument. As with any thread, one can choose to participate or not.
 
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Old 08-28-2019, 03:17 PM   #7
ondoho
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cynwulf View Post
It's a bad idea, because it will be seen by some as an admission from the forum administration that systemd can only be discussed in a puerile fashion, inevitably leading to "flaming", etc. This will lead to the perception of a "pro-systemd" stance from the forum admin/staff and will limit legitimate criticism of systemd and similar.
I was thinking about something biting & witty to remark here, but you're actually right, so I will abstain. :holy:

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankbell View Post
SystemD
Hey, that's wrong spelling. Is the LQ police sleeping???
 
Old 08-28-2019, 05:57 PM   #8
ChuangTzu
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No reason for a separate sub forum. And Frank FYI, its not all emotional and philosophical its also pragmatic, systemd has caused many CVE's to be issued and has a habit of not caring what it breaks: ie systemd and AMD do not play well together because of what systemd thinks is right....cant resume from suspend etc... Let's not mention the numerous closed not a bug reports that still occur, or the you will learn to like it and learn to use your computer in a different way mentality of the dev team that still occurs.

I think the best way to discuss it pros/cons is in the open as each thread pops up. Not being designated to the throwaway sub forum.
 
Old 08-28-2019, 07:28 PM   #9
phil.d.g
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ondoho View Post
Hey, that's wrong spelling
This isn't a go at you, I honestly can't recall you having written systemd or a variation, and I'm not about to go looking, but it was the segue I needed.

Personally, I think it's a mark of disrespect. Torvalds is that precious about it he has published recordings on the correct pronunciation. And, fair play to him, it's his project, his prerogative. Perl and perl are different things. Fortran or FORTRAN: it depends on the version, apparently its capitalisation changed. If a project hasn't stated a preference and uses variations, feel free to use the same variations, but if they have gone to the effort of explaining how to pronounce or spell their name, it's the least you can do, to get it right.

If an individual can't show the minute level of attention to detail required to correctly spell a project's name, and display the respect that group deserve, then I'm loathed to show the same individual any respect, nor believe they've applied an appropriate level of attention to any other detail. And, because an individual might not agree with the architecture, design goals, implementation of a project, that doesn't mean it doesn't deserve a level of respect.

Now, for an end user of an OS where the particular thing that is misspelt is just one component: meh, I can cope. But for someone claiming that a project needs replacing and is going about theorising how such a replacement might look - yes, I'll hold them to a much higher standard. They should show more professionalism.
 
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Old 08-28-2019, 09:52 PM   #10
frankbell
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Quote:
And Frank FYI, its not all emotional and philosophical its also pragmatic
There's a reason I prefaced my sentence with "much of." I used to work in a large corporation. I am quite skilled in weasel-wording . . . .

All my boxes are Intel Inside, so I've had none of the AMD issues to which you allude and am unfamiliar with them; I've never had a problem related to SystemD (and that's how I shall spell it, thank you very much).

I don't like SystemD--mostly for philosophical reasons, I confess--but, as long as rsyslog is installed, I find it tolerable.

And I do not think it should be dignified by having a dedicated thread. It is not worthy of one.

Last edited by frankbell; 08-28-2019 at 09:57 PM.
 
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Old 08-29-2019, 04:53 AM   #11
cynwulf
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Next up:

Is is "SysV init", "SysV-init", "SysVinit"?

Well apparently none of the above:
https://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/sysvinit
Quote:
System Name: sysvinit

Name: System V style init programs
Clearly the authors need to make this clear, by way of an obnoxiously worded blog and no less...

However...
Quote:
README for SysV init
====================

SysV init is a classic initilization program (PID 1) for GNU/Linux and
other UNIX/POSIX systems. It is designed to be small, simple and to
stay out of the way.

Last edited by cynwulf; 08-29-2019 at 04:59 AM.
 
Old 08-29-2019, 05:05 AM   #12
rokytnji
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Stopped by for just the read. systemd threads sure seem like religious and operating system war threads. So I see hazels point of view also.

Since I don't have a dog in this hunt. I got no opinion/typed badly on sucky keyboard > onion.
 
Old 08-29-2019, 07:38 AM   #13
jsbjsb001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phil.d.g View Post
...
If an individual can't show the minute level of attention to detail required to correctly spell a project's name, and display the respect that group deserve, then I'm loathed to show the same individual any respect, nor believe they've applied an appropriate level of attention to any other detail. And, because an individual might not agree with the architecture, design goals, implementation of a project, that doesn't mean it doesn't deserve a level of respect.

Now, for an end user of an OS where the particular thing that is misspelt is just one component: meh, I can cope. But for someone claiming that a project needs replacing and is going about theorising how such a replacement might look - yes, I'll hold them to a much higher standard. They should show more professionalism.
Precisely, absolutely agree.

(bolded for emphasis)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ondoho View Post
...
Hey, that's wrong spelling. Is the LQ police sleeping???
This is exactly the kind of thing that starts flame wars. While I realize you've included a smiley, presumably to show the comment as a light-hearted comment, and either way; this directly implies that people making valid comments about the name of systemd are somehow too childish to take any meaningful part in an honest discussion about systemd (for or against). As it's not hard to show respect to even those one disagrees with, the same as it's not hard to stick to the topic at hand. The same as I make an effort to spell your username the way you have spelt it, rather than writing "0nd0h0", or even "OndohO". Why? Because everyone here should feel like they can give an opinion, without being stereotyped, or personally attacked because someone disagrees with them. This place should be a place where differences of opinion should be welcomed, not discouraged. And from what I've noticed; this is exactly how it generally goes with systemd "debates", someone stereotypes someone else, then the personal attacks/insults follow, then the thread turns into nothing more than a flame war that doesn't help any side of the argument. There is no need at all for people to stereotype other people just because they disagree, and in a serious and adult debate/discussion, there should be not only no need for it, but no place for it.

While I don't agree with Hazel on everything, but yes, I agree with her about far more than not; this doesn't change what I think of her one iota, even when she gets mad, or takes exception to something said. I still enjoy Hazel's presence at this place, and think she not only always shows a high degree of respect towards everyone else, she in my view is a very smart and knowledgeable member who I'd be proud to know in real life as a fellow human. I not only regard Hazel as an absolute darling in every sense of the word, I hope she continues posting here at LQ for as long as humanly possible. So you know what? Who gives the furry crack of a rats ass if I disagree with her from time to time, so what. Hazel has earned my respect, so anything I disagree with her about does not change that one iota. She's still a lovely lady in my book, regardless of what anyone else might think. I would go as far to say that Hazel is a model for the rest of us to follow, and I'd have no issue in saying that. To be clear: I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with any comments Hazel's made, but she's a very fine example of someone who can have a difference of opinion with someone, without resorting to stereotyping, or attacking them personally, while just speaking to the topic at hand (not saying there aren't others just like Hazel, thankfully there are).

To be clear ondoho: I'm speaking in general here. But your quoted comment above serves a perfect example of what the real issue here is, and that's showing respect, even when disagreeing. And no, I'm not saying it's only your comments either, actually, and for the record, your comments in the threads concerned have probably been the better ones, in all fairness.
 
Old 08-29-2019, 09:07 AM   #14
syg00
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systemd being init, it'd better be a permanent thread.

As for those ridiculously long diatribes - who reads (all of) them ?. The more they proliferate, the more pointless they become.

:shrug:
 
Old 08-29-2019, 11:03 AM   #15
verndog
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Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by syg00 View Post
systemd being init, it'd better be a permanent thread.

As for those ridiculously long diatribes - who reads (all of) them ?. The more they proliferate, the more pointless they become.

:shrug:
I also wonder of those against/for systemd/init, how many are just parroting what they read and not technological on the subject.
I don't know the technical side of either. I use systemd, and have installed a few other init systems. After boot, I have other things to accomplish , than worry about the init's.
 
  


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