One of the more annoying things of this forum is the way newbies are forgiven for almost anything. Laziness to put in any effort, looking things up or provide a proper error description. Keeping to ask questions and never provide feedback. Insisting on using Kali. Using rude language. I am talking here about one-time posters, poster who use LQ as human Google, and the famous one-liners.

This is in strong contrast with the attitude presented to long term members. Newbies seem to be forgiven almost anything while older members are quickly corrected or reprimanded.

Even when a newbie shows inappropriate behavior, which receives a critical or cynical response by a long term member, the long term member is corrected, not the newbie.

I will give two examples of this. First, this thread: https://www.linuxquestions.org/quest...at-4175629458/ :
This was my original answer:
I have reconstructed it, because it was moderator modified. I am sure the wording was not stronger than what I reconstructed. I was not calling names, I was not calling the OP a dumboass or so. This is what is left after modification:
Then, this Kali newbie: https://www.linuxquestions.org/quest...se-4175621238/
This is what the OP answered to one of the replies:
Then I replied with: Now what you see here is not the original reply of the OP. Within 3 minutes of my reply, he has edited his post and toned down at least 70%. The OP's original reply contained words as "dumbass", "to stupid to...", etc.

Still, I think the modified reply by the OP is inappropriate. "If you can't read" is insulting, and writing in CAPS is considered shouting.

Although I have reported the thread, after 24 hours the OP is still not corrected or reprimanded for his language.

I am really sorry downright inappropriate behavior, against LQ rules, against LQ etiquette, against common sense is so much tolerated. By other members, but mostly by moderators. In contrast to contributions which try to make LQ a place which is also satisfying for members which do want to put effort in the Linux community.

jlinkels

I have to disagree to a certain extent. I believe that new posters should be given the benefit of the doubt. I remember how confusing it was to me when I first started posting on LQ, and many of these new posters will be much much younger than I was then and/or not have English as their first language. I don't think, for example, that we should be sarcastic towards them.

In saying that, I agree that the reply by KS4 in the second thread was inappropriate. We all have to try to be polite to each other (although, if you trace back my posting history, I'm sure you will find that I haven't been perfect in this regard ). I wouldn't have edited his/her post as it is though, having not seen the original unedited version, as it doesn't actually include any pejorative language. What I would have done, as a mod, is added a post pointing out that we have to be civil to each other, no matter how much you think anyone else's posts may be ridiculous or how much we disagree with them.

On the Kali front, I think we react too quickly and too vehemently against Kali users. Politely pointing out that Kali may not be suitable is fine, but it is Linux after all and if their problem can be solved then we should still try to solve it.

As has been pointed out in another of these recent threads about LQ rules and moderation, it is a fine balancing act. We have to allow folk to express themselves, but in a polite respectful way. We can't start penalising folk for using CAPS for example. But what we can do is point out to people, nicely, that they should be polite. The word "please" is very useful in that regard.

Personally, I think the real problem here is that at least some are coming here thinking that this place is some kind of help-desk and treating it like one. Forgetting that we are not getting paid to help anyone. I don't think the problem only apply's to new members either, there's a member that's been a member for longer than I have and continues to ask questions showing little to no effort of there own - this has been pointed out by at least a couple of members as well.

I think when it's clear that the OP is not showing any effort to try and solve THEIR problem(s) their thread should be closed and I fully support rtmistler's actions in leading the way there, and I would like to see the rest of the mod's adopt the same stance. I PM'd a member who responded to this thread last night, warning him of the OP's history. This OP clearly just wants us to write him a complete how-to guide because he's just too lazy to make any effort of his own and/or do any real research of his own.

I also reported that same thread and there has not been any action from mod's AFAICS. I accept and have seen new members that genuinely have trouble understanding things, but there's a BIG difference between that and expecting people to spoon feed them.

Unfortunately I can see jlinkels point here and agree that in many cases, we are way too soft on people that come here and treat the place like it's a help-desk where people are getting paid to help - we are not once again. While I can also understand what hydrurga is saying and accept it's not always easy to tell, a lot of the time it is - and it's high time mod's start getting serious with people (new or long term) that what to abuse people's kindness here.

I take it you have no children, and are not a teacher.

Strange, because as someone who helps here, I see it as being a help desk. The only difference is that in the case of LQ we like to see that the person requiring help has, or is willing to, put in some work of their own in order to resolve the problem, or at least troubleshoot it. If they don't know how to do this, we can give them advice or hints.

What does happen from time to time is that the people who are helping are all "singing from the same hymn sheet" and nudging the OP towards solving the problem themselves when another poster comes along and just spoon-feeds them the answer. It doesn't happen very often, but it's quite amusing (sorry) when it does. Not much we can do about that though.

In general though, I think that some of us are not understanding enough to new posters, unable to put ourselves in their shoes. We don't want to scare folk away. After all, we are ambassadors for Linux. We really must get away from the old "RTFM!" days.

The other thing to take into consideration is that if someone has posed a question then, even if they take no further active part in the thread, users in the future will find the thread by searching for it. If we don't provide some sort of answer at some point then the thread will be as useful as a chocolate teapot. We should be always be thinking "what if folk in the future read this thread?" So, at the very least (and without closing threads if we can avoid it), we should be providing advice on how to resolve an issue, perhaps pointing at tools that can be used to do so. A thread is more than just its OP, it is the resolution of an issue.

When I started with Linux (around the turn of the millennium) forums had the reputation of being places where newbies often got flamed. Ubuntu Forums was an exception; they had very strict moderation. Linux Forums was quite a friendly place too, and it became my main hangout. But you didn't ask silly questions in any of the other distro-specific forums such as Debian or Gentoo! Not more than once anyway.

As a result, I always felt that newbies need to be treated fairly gently. They don't know much about forum etiquette after all, and we don't want to put them off Linux altogether. I try to be helpful even to Kali users ("Please stop using Kali, it isn't suitable for new users"). Sometimes, especially of late, I get exasperated and allow myself a little sarcasm (privilege of the old), but I try not to actually flame them.

If some people find newbies too exasperating, why not just ignore their posts?

I can see what you're saying and I do agree in part, but only in part, as even the rules explicitly state that "this is not a help-desk, or a product you have paid for". So while yes, it could "viewed" as a "help-desk", it's not the same as a help-desk where people are getting paid to help. And I think that's where the distinction is.

I agree, there's just no viable solution to that. Agreed.

I can't speak for others, but I think the distinction here is "people that clearly don't want to put in much if any effort themselves". Let's face it, it's still THEIR problem, and more importantly (as you're saying - I *think*) it's a two way street. As in: THEY need to work with us and yes, vice versa.

I agree with that, but that's just the point: there is no point trying to help someone that does not want to put in the effort themselves, as that's probably not going to be useful to future readers.

This is where we disagree. There is a point in at least indicating how the problem could be resolved, even if the OP doesn't want to put in the effort themselves. That *will* be useful to future readers. A thread in which other posters have a go at the OP, whether kindly or not, but that doesn't show future posters how the issue could be resolved (even roughly) is no use to anyone.

Since I was big kid. Plus raising kids. I have always had a weakness to support the underdog and the weak.
Even the lazy from time to time. Till they hit ingrate status. Then I move on.

I find ignoring a lazy dude/dudette works just as well as telling them they annoy me.

Edit: after re-reading your original post that started this thread. Sorry the dude annoyed you.
I laud you for trying to help. Just laugh inside when they get upset. Then move on.

There is some sort of grey area on both sides of the line which distinguishes lazyness from ignorance.

Take for example this thread: https://www.linuxquestions.org/quest...te-4175630353/

There are least 3 million articles on the internet how to use apt-get and sources.list. Still the OP asks for directions. His reporting is horrible, by posting screen shot pictures instead of copied terminal output.

But he is responsive, does what is being instructed, reports back and finally reports success.

I think that is fully acceptable despite of everything else which could be improved in his communication. This is not the kind of newbie I object to.

jlinkels

i do not know what happens to those newbs behind the curtain, but i have long had the suspicion that what OP says is exactly true (though i would never have opened a thread for it; seems a little whiny).
i also appreciate that the example they gave is honest; not trying to put themselves in a better light.

these 2 comments seem to confirm my suspicions:
it is not my job to be a teacher here, or a help desk grunt.
i do not, in fact, have a job here at all.
forums are places of equal collaboration, and i firmly believe that this is the best way to solve problems.
in fact, assuming an attitude like this creates a division, a 2-class society if you will, and a certain arrogance or false sense of entitlement on both sides.

Although I always login when I come here, I consider myself somewhat of a lurker. I occasionally offer help but most of the time someone's beaten me to it.
I do believe, however, that if someone asks for help and I can give it, I do. I wouldn't tell them to go elsewhere. The only exception is the obvious homework question.
Surely, we're registered here either because we want help or we want to offer it (or both)?

1 members found this post helpful.

Interesting, Ondoho, that you only quoted the first sentence that I wrote above, and not the entire paragraph that placed that first sentence in context.

I am here to help. It is for that reason that I consider the forum a "help-desk" (by my definition of the term anyway). It is where people with issues go to seek help. I would prefer, if possible, that the person that I help contributes and learns something, particularly regarding how to help themselves in the future in similar situations. How to critically think, for example. But that's not always possible.

If you contribute to someone learning something, you are a teacher, whether you consider yourself one or not. We are all both teachers and learners, and that is how it should be.

How can a forum be a place of "equal collaboration" when someone is completely new to Linux, as many of our posters are, and some have many years of experience? Often the movement of ideas or information must necessarily flow significantly in one direction, but in the hope that the person doing the learning will similarly pass on that knowledge in the future. That doesn't reflect arrogance or entitlement, it reflects the sharing of knowledge.

my definition of "help-desk" means there's a clear division: the customer side, and the employee side.
otherwise, why not just say "help"?

i presume you mean experience with linux.
but problem solving on most forums is mostly about communication and common sense, not linux experience.
i do like to assume that we're all adults here, which means we're sufficiently skilled in both communication and common sense.
alas, it is often not so, and the communication skills do not run along the same lines as the computer skills, often quite the opposite

not being able to describe your computer problem is a question of

1. common sense, because you don't need linux experience to understand that we're not looking over your shoulder, so we can only help with what you describe to us
2. common sense again, because a web search and some relaxed research would have answered at least 50%, before even asking the question (concessions to people who are too old to have grown up in a www-saturated world)
3. communication, because you need to be able to tell us about the problem (technical or otherwise) in coherent, understandable words
4. english language
5. linux or operating system or computer knowledge/skills

in that order.

Because there's no such entity as a "help" that you can go to for assistance.

You're right though, our definitions are different.