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Originally Posted by pwabrahams I agree in general that systems like Windows that try to guess what you meant and get it wrong all too often are a pain in the butt. But in this particular context there's little to be lost, assuming my view of the security issue is correct.

Not saying you're wrong on the security issue- I've questioned the need for passwords to be case-sensitive at all elsewhere in the past. But the fact remains in every case where passwords are used, and Jeremy has stated that it would be impossible to change that here.

The question of whether Linux should expect you to know what you're doing goes to the heart of a controversial issue: is Linux supposed to be a replacement for Windows for all users or only for sophisticated users? If Linux is supposed to be usable by people of average intelligence with no particular interest in computers, then perhaps Linux shouldn't make that assumption. If you assume a sophisticated user, then it should. Is Linux intended to be a system for the masses, or not?

Let me just say that I only mentioned that as a pet peeve. FWIW, I can see the controversy and I'm not in total disagreement, but any debate here would be off-topic...

Cheers

Originally Posted by pwabrahams The question of whether Linux should expect you to know what you're doing goes to the heart of a controversial issue: is Linux supposed to be a replacement for Windows for all users or only for sophisticated users? If Linux is supposed to be usable by people of average intelligence with no particular interest in computers, then perhaps Linux shouldn't make that assumption. If you assume a sophisticated user, then it should. Is Linux intended to be a system for the masses, or not?

Linux has no central theme or marketing objective---it is the outgrowth of several initiatives, including the FSF and GNU, and of course Linus Torvalds' kernel. By the very nature of open-source, the thing grows, multiplies, and mutates in uncontrollable and unpredictable ways.

A company like MS--operating under the traditional paradigms--can control the evolution and marketing** of the technology. There is no parallel in the Linux and open-source world.

To the original question: I do not want any system (Windows, Linux, ATM, whatever) making it easier for me to enter passwords or to relieve me from having to insert my card correctly. Whenever something like this is done, it not only compromises security, but it also adds to the "dumbing down" of society.

**Even more off-topic: In the world of someone like MS, new things are not made available until the marketing arm approves them. No such restriction with open-source.

Originally Posted by pixellany To the original question: I do not want any system (Windows, Linux, ATM, whatever) making it easier for me to enter passwords or to relieve me from having to insert my card correctly. Whenever something like this is done, it not only compromises security, but it also adds to the "dumbing down" of society.

There are a lot of things that add convenience but don't compromise security except in the most minor way. What's the security issue in recognizing an ATM card no matter what its orientation? I suspect the real issues are that (a) nobody in the banking community thought of it, and (b) the extra sensors would cost a little more money.

As to "dumbing down": lack of understanding and "fat fingers" are two very different things. It's easy to make typing mistakes or to overlook things even when you understand perfectly what's going on. Dumbing down is a concession to ignorance, not to failures of hand-eye coordination or minor absent-mindedness (the latter I plead guilty to).

I define "dumbing down" as any action--overt or unconscious--which feeds the cycle:

While true; do
Make things easier\
so people don't have to think\
so they stop thinking\
so we need to make things easier
continue
#(ad nauseum)
done

Read the story about the woman in Washington State that discovered that they were not teaching long division in the schools. Good news: she turned it around. Bad news: apparently the practice was at one time quite widespread--and continues in some schools.