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Old 09-30-2019, 10:11 AM   #1
cynwulf
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Stallman resignation thread


Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremy
Closing this thread for what I hope are obvious reasons
https://www.linuxquestions.org/quest...on-4175661020/

The reasons are not obvious to me at least. I for one would appreciate some clarification?

I've scanned through the thread and can't find the offensive material.

Thank you

 
Old 09-30-2019, 10:13 AM   #2
Lysander666
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I will add my voice to cynwulf's, I can't see why the thread was closed. It was a useful place for discussion of a very important issue.
 
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Old 09-30-2019, 10:17 AM   #3
snowday
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LinuxQuestions has been going downhill lately with these political "discussions." Moderators should seriously consider limiting discussion to Linux technical questions. Lots of other places on the internet to discuss pedophilia. It's offputting.

Last edited by snowday; 09-30-2019 at 10:33 AM.
 
Old 09-30-2019, 10:35 AM   #4
jsbjsb001
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Funnily enough, I had just sent a PM to Jeremy about his thoughts about one of my threads in this very forum (not because there was any complains or similar about it, but because Jeremy had responded to it for non-moderation reasons), and I also mentioned in that same PM that it isn't obvious to me why the RMS thread in General was closed.

So I also agree that from what I saw, it hadn't gone off-topic, and while I've not read the whole thread in question; I also agree that I see no reason as to why it should have been closed, as I'd not seen any posts of concern either. So I'd be interested to understand why it's been closed too.
 
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Old 09-30-2019, 10:36 AM   #5
cynwulf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snowday View Post
LinuxQuestions has been going downhill lately with these political "discussions." Moderators should seriously consider limiting discussion to Linux technical questions.
Or they could simply censure this kind of commentary and leave the thread open :
Quote:
Least shocking news of the day:
Flagship University Cuts Ties with Homeless 66 Year Old Pedophile who Eats His Own Toe Jam
Quote:
OMG "political correctness" on a college campus in 2019?!? That's crazy!!!
https://www.linuxquestions.org/quest...ml#post6042258

You comment there is what I would term the embodiment of "going downhill". From someone who is suggesting "limiting discussion to Linux technical questions", that comes across as just a tad hypocritical.
 
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Old 09-30-2019, 10:39 AM   #6
orbea
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snowday View Post
LinuxQuestions has been going downhill lately with these political "discussions." Moderators should seriously consider limiting discussion to Linux technical questions. Lots of other places on the internet to discuss pedophilia. It's offputting.
While I agree pedophilia is off-putting it was a discussion extremely relevant to the GNU and Linux communities and free software is not built only upon technical issues, but the interpersonal issues of those involved too. Where should people discuss these issues if not LQ? I took a look around for other places discussing this topic and I did not like what I saw.
 
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Old 09-30-2019, 10:41 AM   #7
snowday
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cynwulf View Post
Or they could simply censure this kind of commentary and leave the thread open :



https://www.linuxquestions.org/quest...ml#post6042258

You comment there is what I would term the embodiment of "going downhill". From someone who is suggesting "limiting discussion to Linux technical questions", that comes across as just a tad hypocritical.
It's true; guilty as charged! Pedophilia is just such a "triggering" topic for me, I couldn't help replying as I did (and then I regretted it once I had a chance to cool down).

Last edited by snowday; 09-30-2019 at 02:55 PM.
 
Old 09-30-2019, 02:45 PM   #8
ChuangTzu
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I agree with cynwulf, no reason to close the other thread except to remove discussion of a very important topic regarding one of the leaders of the FOSS/FLOSS movement. It is becoming abundantly clear that if this trend of not allowing open discussion is permitted to continue then we have truly entered the height of hypocrisy, especially on LQ, and will continue to slide down the vortex of post modernism and cultural marxism.

It is also apparent that a rat was present in the other thread that was hitting the report button in an attempt to get the much needed treat/reward they crave. That person has also found his/her way to this thread. That is the behavior that needs to be questioned, called out and confronted, not the open discussion of thoughts/ideas etc...

We cannot have Free and Open systems and then also say: hey lets close this thread because it does not deal with technical issues. What allows technical issues to thrive is the Philosophy and thoughts and ideas behind them. Without that you just defined closed systems, tyrannical systems that stifle free thought and open discussions/ideas.

Postmodernism and Cultural Marxism | Jordan B Peterson
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLoG9zBvvLQ
 
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Old 09-30-2019, 02:47 PM   #9
jeremy
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As I have stated multiple times recently, the General forum has been trending in a direction that is not in the spirit of LQ for a while; this thread didn't get closed in a vacuum. I've made clear this pattern needs to change. With that in mind, as I have indicated repeatedly over the years, I would *highly* prefer to keep the General forum. I think it's a great way for LQ members to interact, to get to know each others, and to discuss topics that are not directly related to Linux. That doesn't mean it gets to be a free-for-all. I've asked members to reassess and iterate on their behavior. If that doesn't happen, the next step is thread closure and individual members having their General posting privileges removed.

--jeremy
 
Old 09-30-2019, 04:30 PM   #10
orbea
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Its still not at all clear to me, would you please elaborate more what part of the spirit of LQ was not being adhered to? What pattern do you wish to change? I'm not sure how anyone can be expected to follow your suggestions when they don't understand. From the best I can tell it was a general discussion pertaining to real world events which are related to the free software community and I really struggle to see how this is unwelcome, but maybe I am in the wrong place and you have not made that yet clear enough?
 
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Old 09-30-2019, 04:41 PM   #11
Lysander666
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I am also still no further down the line in understanding why it was closed. I understand that a certain standard must be adhered to and that high-quality discussion is valued at LQ. That much is evident and appreciated. But there are threads open in other places in LQ, and posts that have been allowed to remain, which belie that standard.

That topic was about a sensitive and vital issue. If anything, it should have remained open so that LQ members could discuss that sensitive and vital issue whilst documenting its ramifications on the wider Linux community and its history. In a sense, I feel that this goes beyond just LQ. Don't get me wrong, I love this site and am very pleased to be part of such a great community, but one of the things that makes LQ so strong as a community is transparency, and I still feel that this is lacking in this instance. Do we want to be part of the problem [as discussed in that thread] or the solution? That is the pertinent question we have to pose ourselves, because once a decision on that is made we are not going back.
 
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Old 09-30-2019, 04:42 PM   #12
jeremy
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I'd encourage everyone who isn't clear to read my recent posts in General, then read the LQ rules. Really think about statements like "Challenge others' points of view and opinions, but do so respectfully and thoughtfully ... without insult and personal attack. Differing opinions is one of the things that make this site great."...which are not just platitudes but core to our ethos. Then read the thread in question; every post of it. I've just done so again, wondering if I reacted too quickly or too harshly. I don't think I have. I'm a huge proponent of free speech and open debate, but there has to be a line. I understand that line is grey, and for every person who thinks we're too lenient there is someone who thinks we're too strict.

Finally, if the topic is one members would like to discuss then feel free to start a new thread. The thread was in no way closed because of the subject matter. Do note, I have made very clear what the expectations for General are. The new thread would be very much subject to those guidelines. If you'd like to participate in General, and at LQ more broadly, please do keep them in mind.

--jeremy
 
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Old 09-30-2019, 05:08 PM   #13
ChuangTzu
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Perhaps Jeremy when closing a thread you could site the specific offending/violating posts and also reference the specific LQ rule that was violated and quote that specific rule to elucidate and educate. I believe that is what orbea and others are referencing is a lack of specific reference point, generalities leave room for opaqueness.
 
Old 09-30-2019, 05:15 PM   #14
jeremy
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I very often do just that (typically trying to get the thread back on track before closing). By the time I saw the thread in question, the number of unacceptable posts was large enough that it clearly was not salvageable. Almost everyone participating in this thread has been a member long enough to know we rarely close threads, and should know what the expectations at LQ are. It's pretty clear to me that we got too lenient in General (and possibly elsewhere), and members accepted that as the new norm. This is in no way a policy change, just a course correction.

--jeremy
 
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Old 09-30-2019, 06:02 PM   #15
cynwulf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremy View Post
"Challenge others' points of view and opinions, but do so respectfully and thoughtfully ... without insult and personal attack. Differing opinions is one of the things that make this site great."...which are not just platitudes but core to our ethos. Then read the thread in question; every post of it. I've just done so again, wondering if I reacted too quickly or too harshly. I don't think I have. I'm a huge proponent of free speech and open debate, but there has to be a line.
I've also read all 6 pages from start to finish and I have not found even one incident in over 70 posts where an LQ member personally attacks nor insults another LQ member. The thread involved lots of senior LQ members and at least one moderator and so far as I can see it was fairly low key.

I'm willing to accept however, that I've missed some veiled and nasty personal attack and would appreciate it highlighting (for obvious reasons).

Although snowday's post might have been somewhat trollish, I cannot see any kind of direct personal attack or insult directed at other members within those posts. If their posts were the reason for the lock, then they could be removed and the thread allowed to continue.

Count me among those still at a loss to see where rules were somehow broken and who it was exactly that broke said rules.

The offer to start another thread is also confusing to me, and I am clearly not alone in not understanding precisely why the original thread was closed, which post were deemed problematic, which members in particular broke rules - thus proceeding with a new thread with a view to keeping said thread within the rules and open, would be somewhat difficult - i.e. where not understanding precisely when and where "without insult and personal attack" was violated.
 
  


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