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Old 01-27-2011, 03:19 PM   #1021
dugan
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I suggest that if downreps are ever allowed again, then downrepping someone else should also decrease your own reputation (by a smaller amount), and uprepping someone should also increase your own reputation (again, by a smaller amount).

That's the system used on Stackoverflow.com.
 
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Old 01-27-2011, 03:44 PM   #1022
forrestt
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So, what you are saying is that if someone suggest the solution to a problem is to steal a copy of windows and install that instead, I should lose status because I down rep them? That may be a GREAT idea, because any use of the rep system in a negative way pretty much guarantees that you will get retribution taken away by others, that would simply bypass the middleman. Besides, in my example, a negative rep for suggesting criminal activity would still not be enough to satisfy everyone that the neg rep was warranted.

Last edited by forrestt; 01-27-2011 at 03:45 PM.
 
Old 01-27-2011, 04:14 PM   #1023
dugan
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In that specific example, the correct response would not be to downrep, but rather to report the post and then whistle while you count down the seconds to mod action.
 
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Old 01-27-2011, 04:33 PM   #1024
forrestt
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You are correct, and that is what I would do. The point is, there is NOTHING wrong (imho), with down-repping someone. People shouldn't be punished for expressing their opinion that something is not to their standard via the reputation system. That's exactly what you are doing in the opposite direction with an up rep. You are saying that this post meets a certain standard to distinguish the poster of the post with a bit of reputation. All a down rep is doing is saying that the person who down-reps doesn't believe that the post meets the minimum standard for a quality post. Don't want to be down-repped by someone who has higher standards than you, raise your standards. Don't attack them for pointing out your shortcomings. What you are suggesting is that people with higher standards than the norm should be punished or forced to keep their opinions to themselves.
 
Old 01-27-2011, 05:01 PM   #1025
dugan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by forrestt View Post
People shouldn't be punished for expressing their opinion that something is not to their standard via the reputation system. All a down rep is doing is saying that the person who down-reps doesn't believe that the post meets the minimum standard for a quality post. What you are suggesting is that people with higher standards than the norm should be punished or forced to keep their opinions to themselves.
Thank you for the carefully worded analysis.

If you have the power to actively do someone harm based solely on your own subjective opinions, then yes there should be a cost. The cost should be large enough to force you to examine your opinions, but small enough to be worth it if you feel the situation is extreme enough. 1 point would be my recommendation.

Under the old system, there was no acountability built into the use of the rep system at all. And that, Forrest, is why people felt justified in taking things into their own hands when they subjectively disagreed with your reasons for using it.

Furthermore, I would recommend that the list of valid reasons for downrepping and the list of valid reasons for reporting should not overlap. If they do, then there would be no reason for downreps to exist (again).

Last edited by dugan; 01-27-2011 at 05:27 PM.
 
Old 01-27-2011, 05:31 PM   #1026
forrestt
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Everything labelled "good" or "bad" is done so based off of subjective beliefs, standards, or opinions. And there is no "harm" done by giving someone a negative rep if their post indicates that they should be given one. You aren't costing them money, hurting them physically, or preventing them from getting a good paying job. All you are doing is letting others know that the advice they may give is not as good as the advice given by a different person with a higher rep in general. That isn't even a hard-and-fast rule.

The problem is that is NOT how the reputation system has been used. Instead, it was (and still is) used as a tool for the group to punish those of us who disagree. In addition to being given negative reps for daring to give a negative rep, my posts have been sought out and given "No" values when asked "Did you find this post helpful", making it appear as if I don't know what I'm talking about at all.

Well, the group has made it clear that they think my advice is bad. I have therefore come to the conclusion that I will no longer even try to be helpful and limit my posts to replies to threads I've already posted to. Perhaps someday I'll get over it, but my personal belief at this point is that LQ has been taken over by a bunch of jerks. This is NOT how this site was when I started here 6 years ago. There were no campaigns to discredit other users back then that I'm aware of.

Last edited by forrestt; 01-27-2011 at 08:04 PM.
 
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Old 01-27-2011, 06:13 PM   #1027
mlangdn
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Quote:
The point is, there is NOTHING wrong (imho), with down-repping someone. People shouldn't be punished for expressing their opinion that something is not to their standard via the reputation system.
A down rep should never happen based on an opinion - your's, mine, or anyone else's. A down rep should only be fact-based. That said, I hope that the ability to down rep never comes back.
 
Old 01-27-2011, 07:06 PM   #1028
forrestt
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EVERYTHING about judging things is opinion. By definition a down rep is based on opinion, just as an up rep is. The opinion should be backed by fact, but it is still an opinion. (Just as my belief that it should be backed by fact).
 
Old 01-28-2011, 05:10 AM   #1029
H_TeXMeX_H
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I think forrestt is on to something here. I too have a feeling that a reputation system seems to be merely a way to express opinions, and to stifle them at the same time.

It helps to reinforce current, general opinions, and stifle the minority, more controversial opinions.

As an example, I got many neg reps (right after the neg rep system was turned off) for expressing my opinion that I hate tattoos. The general opinion is that tattoos are cool and people who have them are cool, but I bet to differ, completely in fact. Am I to be neg repped for expressing my opinion, even if it is different from the majority ?

I don't think reputation should have anything to do with what the majority thinks of your opinion. It should have to do with, I would say, the usefulness of your post to resolving a particular problem, like a "Thanks" for helping me solve a problem, instead of a "No, I don't like your opinion".
 
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Old 01-28-2011, 07:03 AM   #1030
Hangdog42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by forrestt
The problem is that is NOT how the reputation system has been used. Instead, it was (and still is) used as a tool for the group to punish those of us who disagree. In addition to being given negative reps for daring to give a negative rep, my posts have been sought out and given "No" values when asked "Did you find this post helpful", making it appear as if I don't know what I'm talking about at all.
This is exactly why I wasn't particularly thrilled by the idea of a reputation system in the first place. However, I wouldn't lump all of LQ into a single group. There may be a few people who have gone off the rails with rep, but don't lump us all into some vague hostile group. Of course what this really brings up is a flaw in the rep system. I thought that explanations for negative rep were required so that the mods could reverse anything that was out of line. If people have been hunting you down and deliberately down-repping or making you appear unhelpful, Jeremy and the mods should have stepped in (provided they were aware of it). This kind of clique behavior is exactly what drives a lot of boards into the ground, and until now, has been largely absent at LQ.

Quote:
Originally Posted by H_TeXMeX_H
As an example, I got many neg reps (right after the neg rep system was turned off) for expressing my opinion that I hate tattoos.
Was this a thread in General? I've always thought that the rep system should be turned off in General, just like post count is, and pretty much for the same reasons. The stuff that goes on in General has little to do with Linux and certainly shouldn't affect a persons technical reputation.
 
Old 01-28-2011, 07:23 AM   #1031
H_TeXMeX_H
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hangdog42 View Post
Was this a thread in General? I've always thought that the rep system should be turned off in General, just like post count is, and pretty much for the same reasons. The stuff that goes on in General has little to do with Linux and certainly shouldn't affect a persons technical reputation.
It should have been in General (where it belongs), but it was in Slackware.
 
Old 01-28-2011, 07:48 AM   #1032
onebuck
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Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by H_TeXMeX_H View Post
It should have been in General (where it belongs), but it was in Slackware.
Mind showing the link? Just curious.
 
Old 01-28-2011, 07:50 AM   #1033
H_TeXMeX_H
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http://www.linuxquestions.org/questi...3/#post4173631

3 neg reps 1 positive (to counter / meta)
 
Old 01-28-2011, 08:20 AM   #1034
jeremy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by forrestt View Post
The problem is that is NOT how the reputation system has been used. Instead, it was (and still is) used as a tool for the group to punish those of us who disagree. In addition to being given negative reps for daring to give a negative rep, my posts have been sought out and given "No" values when asked "Did you find this post helpful", making it appear as if I don't know what I'm talking about at all.
I'd be interested in further discussion on how you think the current reputation system is being used to punish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by forrestt View Post
Well, the group has made it clear that they think my advice is bad. I have therefore come to the conclusion that I will no longer even try to be helpful and limit my posts to replies to threads I've already posted to. Perhaps someday I'll get over it, but my personal belief at this point is that LQ has been taken over by a bunch of jerks. This is NOT how this site was when I started here 6 years ago. There were no campaigns to discredit other users back then that I'm aware of.
That's certainly not in the spirit of LQ. If you want to forward me more information off-line I'll certainly look into and take further action if necessary.

--jeremy
 
Old 01-28-2011, 08:23 AM   #1035
jeremy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H_TeXMeX_H View Post
I think forrestt is on to something here. I too have a feeling that a reputation system seems to be merely a way to express opinions, and to stifle them at the same time.
It helps to reinforce current, general opinions, and stifle the minority, more controversial opinions.[/QUOTE]

You feel that the system, in its current iteration is being used in this manner? If so, how?

Quote:
Originally Posted by H_TeXMeX_H View Post
As an example, I got many neg reps (right after the neg rep system was turned off) for expressing my opinion that I hate tattoos. The general opinion is that tattoos are cool and people who have them are cool, but I bet to differ, completely in fact. Am I to be neg repped for expressing my opinion, even if it is different from the majority ?
You were given many negative reps *after* the negative rep system was disabled?

--jeremy
 
  


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