How To Better Serve New Members and the LQ Community?

Originally Posted by 273 Other than getting out a crystal ball I am not sure how you would suggest that the linked thread be dealt with other than a polite request for more information such as the canned-response? If somebody is deliberately withholding information and being awkward there isn't much which can be done. Again my view is that it would look better to respond with a canned-response and let the OP actually think about it than start to either spend hours posting and chipping away to find the answers which may not be forthcoming or leave a possibly rude reply. Rude questions are common enough on forums and in IRC and the like -- the ability to turn them around and help the OP is a very good thing. How much hlp and tolerance is needed though?

I disagree.

Persons can visit that thread to see my attempt.

I think a BIG deal there is the distro and version they're running. They need help running Aptitude and dealing with error situations from it. Yes, they could've stated it better, post #1 was useless, post #2 could've been better, but it does help to understand where they're stuck.

Let's try to get them unstuck, that's why we're participating.

Originally Posted by TheIndependentAquarius My first problem with the canned response link is that it shows a lot of irrelevant information which may drive the users away. Example: The link does NOT show only the "Welcome to LQ" text.

For most screen sizes it will. If we decide to make this more permanent we can always break it out into a separate page.

Originally Posted by TheIndependentAquarius Secondly, when you say: The newbie may not know how to find that info so I think it would be better to provide the commands to find that information and also how to open a terminal to run those commands.

That would make the entry far too long (and it varies greatly per distribution). If they don't know how they can always ask in the thread, which means they are further engaging and are willing to help us help them, which I'd consider a net win.

--jeremy

Originally Posted by rtmistler I disagree. Persons can visit that thread to see my attempt. I think a BIG deal there is the distro and version they're running. They need help running Aptitude and dealing with error situations from it. Yes, they could've stated it better, post #1 was useless, post #2 could've been better, but it does help to understand where they're stuck. Let's try to get them unstuck, that's why we're participating.

Sorry, yes, participating if you know the problem is great. Apologies that I was too ignorant to pick up on the original problem.
I would be interested to know how the thread is solved.

Originally Posted by 273 Sorry, yes, participating if you know the problem is great. Apologies that I was too ignorant to pick up on the original problem. I would be interested to know how the thread is solved.

No worries, we're good.

I fear it either may be too late, or ... it was too late from the get-go.

If they reply I'm willing to hold their hand if they're willing to take a lead to get their problem solved.

Originally Posted by goumba Maybe the "Welcome to LQ" section should be the first entry on the page.

How about its own separate page?

Regards...

Nevermind...

(My idea above still stands, though.)

Originally Posted by rtmistler Well this one didn't work out so well. http://www.linuxquestions.org/questi...ws-4175548929/. Here's the obvious issue which is that the OP wanted to rant right off the bat. I'm sure if the Mod didn't close the thread, things would still be going.

Not everyone can be helped and common sense should prevail in these situations. Someone who has already 100% written off a given Linux system, decided it both "sux" and "blows" and comes to a forum such as this one to start threads of that sort, is pretty much just trolling to see what kind of responses they get. They want their own beliefs and prejudices reaffirmed by provoking some emotional responses from others.

It's usually the case that such people are "experts" or "power users" with their usual operating system of choice and on experiencing the learning curve of any *nix system are eager to rubbish the OS, the support, the community - everything except for their lack of ability. The user infers in his thread that it should be easy - in other words it's being made intentionally difficult to please "neck beards" and "basement dwellers".

The typical reference to "1% market share" should not go unheeded either. Sorry, but it's just typical trolling and I'm a little surprised that time and effort was wasted there... I don't see why such users, who obviously have zero respect for the forum and other users, should get a smile and a "customer services" answer, rather than being told where to go.

Originally Posted by jeremy If they don't know how they can always ask in the thread

That is something which I'd call "intimidating" for the new
user.

Asking someone sitting in America to tell me which OS or
hardware I am using here in India can make me look like a fool.
For newbies it may not be obvious that such information can
be found by a simple command and it is okay if he asks that.

That would make the entry far too long

I am talking about only 2 commands.
One for finding the distribution and other for finding the
hardware details.

(and it varies greatly per distribution).

cat /etc/*{release,version,issue} && uname -a
may probably suffice for all the major distributions?
And dmidecode for knowing the hardware details?

dmidecode's output can be shortened, I think, for listing
out the most generic details by adding options to it?

I know my idea about adding content to the LQ Wiki and utilizing the LQ Wiki to assist in this matter has already been shot down.

Why wouldn't it be beneficial to add some more complete troubleshooting techniques to the LQ Wiki to aid with the canned responses? Then link to such techniques from within the FAQ?

It seems like this is a perfect way to improve content on LQ Wiki as well as help improve the canned response quality and turn around time.

I am not talking about adding in every single issue under the sun and moon.

Just some basic information about how to find out what distribution, what hardware is being used, what kernel is running, and maybe some directions on how to find out package versions for each of the major distributions. In addition some more general (and generic) directions that cover all the less used Linux distributions as well.

I know that nobody likes to write documentation, but this will save everyone time in the long run.

Just my 2c, I hope other can see the value in this idea.

As more posts contain

"I am tired of Windows blah blah blah"

I am finding you just can't fix lazy.
Maybe you guys can.
I know I can't.

Not sure if canned anything can fix that.

Originally Posted by rokytnji As more posts contain "I am tired of Windows blah blah blah" I am finding you just can't fix lazy. Maybe you guys can. I know I can't. Not sure if canned anything can fix that.

I know what you mean -- the attitude of "I'm sick of Windows but won't read a few pages of documentation and do a couple of hours work to avoid it.".
I'm not sure that anything can be done to fix that but I had to post if just to vent and let you know you're not alone.

Originally Posted by 273 I know what you mean -- the attitude of "I'm sick of Windows but won't read a few pages of documentation and do a couple of hours work to avoid it.".

Where the principle motivation for migrating to one computer operating system from another is hatred of the former operating system, the attitude of the 'migrant' is, in most cases, going to be neither positive nor in any way constructive. However bad windows may be, they will likely return to it quietly - or after posting the usual rant about Linux being "too hard" and "for geeks only".

However I also think the Linux evangelising and advocacy is well past it's sell by date. There is no worse advertisement for anything than fanboys publicly and impotently bashing a perceived rival. Focus on what it is, what it can do and not what it isn't, what it can't do and how it compares to something which should be irrelevant.

Originally Posted by cynwulf Where the principle motivation for migrating to one computer operating system from another is hatred of the former operating system, the attitude of the 'migrant' is, in most cases, going to be neither positive nor in any way constructive. However bad windows may be, they will likely return to it quietly - or after posting the usual rant about Linux being "too hard" and "for geeks only". However I also think the Linux evangelising and advocacy is well past it's sell by date. There is no worse advertisement for anything than fanboys publicly and impotently bashing a perceived rival. Focus on what it is, what it can do and not what it isn't, what it can't do and how it compares to something which should be irrelevant.

I agree completely.
However, a thread posted by such an individual can give a very bad impression of Linux and is very difficult to respond to constructively -- hence my rant.

Originally Posted by cynwulf However I also think the Linux evangelising and advocacy is well past it's sell by date. There is no worse advertisement for anything than fanboys publicly and impotently bashing a perceived rival. Focus on what it is, what it can do and not what it isn't, what it can't do and how it compares to something which should be irrelevant.

Well said.

I recently saw, in response to a post asking for help, a senior member stating that Microsoft was making great attempts to keep them from running Linux on their desktop. This was in regards to not UEFI, but simply downloading the ISO and checking its MD5 checksum - that Microsoft intentionally made this difficult. Smacked of fanboyism and added nothing constructive.

Originally Posted by goumba I recently saw, in response to a post asking for help, a senior member stating that Microsoft was making great attempts to keep them from running Linux on their desktop. This was in regards to not UEFI, but simply downloading the ISO and checking its MD5 checksum - that Microsoft intentionally made this difficult. Smacked of fanboyism and added nothing constructive.

That seems excessive. Personally I'm slightly more worried about MS heading in the same direction as Apple and google Android - i.e. locked down devices with a pre-installed OS which cannot be replaced [without jumping through multiple hoops]. At least this was possible in the Gates and Balmer eras. As far as MS go, the operating system will very soon be "free", to home users (as is starting to materialise with Windows 10) because it makes sound commercial sense - and it has to be to remain competitive. Of course this means an OS loaded with built in spyware (a la Android), but people will for the post part accept that.

Back on topic: This forum can be as warm and fuzzy as can be, but the fact remains that installing an operating system is not something which is carried out by the average person. Linux users often take for granted hosing everything and reinstalling time and again while experimenting with distros. To the absolute newbie, installing an OS is a mammoth undertaking. And this is assuming that they actually understand the basic concept of an OS - many quite simply do not. If many realised that one false move could wipe out all of their precious data on the windows partition, they probably wouldn't attempt it.

Regarding checking sha256 or md5 and burning iso images - it's not for MS to facilitate this, as 99% of users would not have the first clue about either of these. The device and OS are to be installed and used "as is" and it's debatable as to whether the end user has the right to demand to install something else (perhaps this should be the case, but that dead horse has been beaten more than several times over the years).