Darn. I thought I had excluded “General” from my list of forums to watch.., but here it is, back again.

You will *NOT* (correction) succeed, as nobody is, trying to turn a person which is *supposed to* use, master or otherwise handle technology to become totally assimilated by the technology, its context or a group of other people occupied in the same way.

Expectations and a supposition of homogeneity, the moment that anybody shows an interest in the same things as you do, are unrealistic. Pressure which is exercised anyway in this direction, is just violent.

At the same time, to broach this and similar issues somewhere apart from a user's current contribution, in a different thread, a different forum, is utterly useless.

I wished, we could (myself inclusive) once and for all accept and integrate all user's humanity and individuality. Could we, any problems with behavior or otherwise irregular activity would be handled straight away where it happened, once and for all, meaning right there, in the thread, with her/his critical post in mind. Repetitive misbehavior and downright incomprehension are not a symptom but a different thing which must be (and is) addressed in a different way.

There are not just two ways of using a forum.

Taking your time with 1 individual thread, if need be getting some popcorn and diet-soda and than not contributing at all, can be the exactly best reaction, sometimes.

I blame myself for being human enough to not follow my own recommendations.

I am guilty of this quite often when replying to Zero Reply posts. I try to reply to these even though I may not be knowledgeable enough to answer the OP's queries because my first impulse is to post something on the OP's thread so that he understands that someone here is reading their posts, even if they can't resolve the issues immediately.

I don't understand this (no sarcasm).

The moment modal editors were invented, 'always insert mode editors that defer all editing that isn't simple backspacing and co, to control key chords' became obsolete.
If control (usually a pinky stretch move ) + letter does an editing thing.
Then how would a mode, which is basically having the computer hold control down for you, not a full scale improvement?

It's not like manual shifting vs automatic in a car, it's literally just the computer holding control down for you until you tell it that you want to 'just type text now'.
Wheras the 'you can ONLY edit text (beyond backspacing via the keyboard ) through chords'...can only edit through chords.

The modal switch 'overhead' is a pittance vs the breakage of the ceiling that is 'only chords can be used to edit', because in a modal approach, you have an entire 'mode' where keystrokes are editing commands,both singular and in sequence.

That sequence bit is especially important, and it's optional too (it unlocks even more potential, but even without it, notepad editors would be improved).
Again, i , followed by 'text to insert' followed by escape to get back into 'normal mode' is a pittance to pay for everything else this genius approach enables.
So, even if this 'needless rigamarole of i and escape' where the only way, in existence, as in, always insert mode editors were completely eradicated, then I would say that it still would be an improvement to the world.

It's easy to think that 'most people just need to insert something and nothing else', but how would that make sense in a world where only modal editors existed?
Wouldn't standards rise?
I argue they would, after all, Notepad style editors languished heavily, but with ed, then vi, etc, it exploded into a glorious suite of almost infinite power.

This kind of evolution is impossible with the 'joke applications', which people keep sabotaging the good and virtuous apostles of modal editing with.
What's the gain of saying "No, nano is good enough"
To escape the dreaded i and escape?
While also denying an almost infinite amount of potential because of the lack of mode that comes with it? Why squash that potential seed in 'most people'?

What's' the goodness in that.
To avoid a couple of keys even in the most naive use case?

That is cruel to me... especially since those keys and mindsets behind this interface paradigm are truly not more complicated than learning the control chords or whatever.

People play games all the time, games with different rules. They can somehow learn those rules, no matter what they are as long as they keep learning them to play their games.

But modal editing is too hard to grasp? This is extremely difficult for me to accept, to put it mildly.
(Can't use computer until you turn it on. Can't use landline phone unless you pick up the handle. Can't use stove until you turn it on. Those are okay? But i to insert into buffer? That's too much for human comprehension? That...that can not be reality. It must not be...it must not remain if it is...)

There is no violence in declaring insert only mode editors a relic of the past. There is no violence in making modal ones the standard. Only goodness.
P.S.: it doesn't have to be vim, either, I just think that's the pinnacle of modal editors in the current reality.
The modal part is important. Go use elvis or emacs in evil mode, as long as you're editing modally.
No more insert only mode editors allowed, for the good of mankind as a whole.

Well, a couple things...

- Young folks will never understand how older folks think/feel until they are older folks themselves.

- When you get to be my age (pushing 60), you tend to stick with what you know. Old folks are like cats; they don't like change.

I use Vim. I do not use any of the fancy newer editors. Why? Because I took the time years ago to learn to use Vim. I can do anything I need to do editing-wise fast and easy with Vim.

I prefer to do much of my system maintenance and other chores in the command line. Why? Because I type about 60wpm and can actually get more done in CLI faster than having to take my hands off the keyboard to twiddle with the mouse.

I hate "smart" phones and don't own/use one.

I drive a 1982 Chevrolet Pickup and a 1996 Chevrolet Suburban. I prefer my Harley-Davidson motorcycles to have carburetors rather than fuel injection.

Bottom line to all this? To each; their own. GNU/Linux is so wonderful (compared to "other" OSes) because there are myriad ways to do things. There are many distributions, desktop managers, editors, etc. A person can choose the ones that work best for them.

Signed:

The ol' Luddite

Where exactly is this thread is going?

well if I was a moderator, I would consider, if I had mod powers in this sub-forum, I would close the thread.

But where is the fun in that?

The OP has already indicated in post 10 what his plans were.

But here is where I differ....and believe this feedback forum needs posters like the OP. To me, somebody on this forum has shouted at him and made him feel worthless.

Have a gander what OP wrote.
I do not believe a poster writes that....unless that poster is reacting to something.

And he has made suggestions in that post too.

But wait! Theres more. Why is it that some people here use capitals?

Sometimes we do it ....to try to focus the mind of OP of what is important.
But sometimes we do it....and I am guilty of this too...we do it because our ego.....wants OP to focus on it.

Who cares someone has 14 years of membership.

Now Eric, I can reveal I am over 60 too. And my point is....as some of us get older....we lose our marbles.
Actually I started early
So to me....shouting at someone that had been a member for FOURTEEN years, without asking if they had any medical issues, is rude.

end of rant

1 members found this post helpful.

I agree with what you're saying and agree that the member who started this thread should not feel attacked.

Not so clearly said earlier, but my post about reporting was for both directions.

A person frustrated with what they see to be a pattern.

And a person who feels they're being addressed rudely.

I get it if people don't prefer those options at all. But it's part of the site and the conveyance chosen to raise an objection.

2 members found this post helpful.

It looks like you either have a funny definition of how the world really works, or you're being willfully ignorant. But you are very correct about at least one thing... yes, forums are indeed much like society in many ways; in society, if you have money, happen to be on the right side of whatever debate, then you're character becomes largely irrelevant, and you are golden - not to mention being able to do almost anything you like with little to no consequence. In terms of forums, take out the money factor; it's pretty much the same deal.

In other words; if you have good standing, particularly with the mods, you're golden, and unless you're blatantly breaking the rules in a very obvious way(s); then you can hide behind almost any number of arguments - particularly if the relevant mod happens to agree with you. There are any number of examples of just that here if you look hard enough.

Not the mention the fact that like a police record; if you already have warnings/infractions that have issued against you through the infractions system, then you've already got a target painted on your back. And each time a mod looks at a post of yours (particularly if it's been reported), their going to look at your record here, then you're likely going to have another warning/infraction issued against you. Because the facts are that at least some of the mods go by the "profile" they have of you - and that doesn't just include what warnings/infractions you may already have. It also includes what they personally think about you and what side of the debate you're on. Same as the real world. Wake up.

It's become almost impossible to have any meaningful debate here without threads being closed and warnings being issued.

You don't think people already HAVE given people like Jeremy "feedback" about the issues this very thread is discussing ? Well they have (even threads started about these same kind of issues - do a search of this very forum), and I've even contacted Jeremy directly and raised these very issues a number of times with him. And what changed? Nothing.

In short, this forum has changed if you look at how it was 10 years ago, and like society, not for the better either. This forum has become nothing more than the Facebook for Linux users. Even scanning through some threads and posts (both this thread and others), looks like nothing has changed at all.

Now which search engine should I use, Google or Duck-Duck-Go? Not the "evil Google" surely...

And what good is reporting things when nothing changes anyway ? What good is reporting things when you have already made up you're mind about someone that's already got a target painted on their back ?

Let alone when you're going to be abusing the infractions system with BS warnings ? Particularly when despite what you say above, you have issued warnings via the infractions system for posts made in forums you don't mod yourself.

What's rude verses being direct ?

Forgive me for being skeptical...

1 members found this post helpful.

You resemble a lot the folks in our tiny village [edit: removed a list of adjectives]:
Putting people into drawers, preferably just one of two and thoroughly categorizing their behavioral patterns appears to be very important, crucial for the establishment of a daily routine...

Unable.
I appreciate rtmistler's immediate commentaries on current events and I appreciate that mood-swings happen, that expressions change and viewpoints are shifting. I claim the right to do alike.

Over Ω

...and you've just provided one of the best examples of exactly what I was talking about - although you've clearly misunderstood the intention of my post. Which was to highlight that very point (since you've obviously missed the point).

Couldn't have asked for a better example if I tried...

Are you saying here that you feel the forum guidelines of using the reporting system and the Contact Us link are entirely ineffective?This seems to be saying that you feel a user may have a pre-judgement placed upon them.

If so, I feel this is untrue in my opinion.

Personally I try to approach each situation sans bias and sans history. That's never perfect, there sometimes is history to consider, in fact it might be the very reason for reports about a post. That's not for just here by the way.

Your statement here also seems to be repeating that you feel the LQ forum choices for arbitration are ineffective, as well as biased.

I do not agree that the conveyances for arbitration in LQ are ineffective, nor that they are biased, or that they should be.

I will concur that they can be biased at any given point, however this brings things back to the circular point about the Contact Us link.Sorry, but for me this seems, clear and unclear.

It seems to be a direct reaction where you're saying that you feel there is, and has been, abuse of the arbitration system.

I hope that you have brought this to the attention of Jeremy. I would risk the thought/impression that you have and that you disagree with the response. Sorry if that impression did transpire and also sorry if you feel this way.

Your statement also seems to be a subtle implications that warnings are meaningless. I'm not sure what to think about that, since it appears that this is an impassioned topic.This is allowable and you should consider that moderators do take time off, as in business trips, vacations, or for personal reasons. Those things are communicated to others and coverage is applied. Meanwhile extremely severe situations that seem to need attention where none is occurring, are also dealt with, on an as needed basis. Perfect example would be if someone old or new starts posting repeatedly extreme swear words, and/or racial insults. Doesn't matter what forum they are in, any moderator should stop their behavior by banning that user and clean-up eventually will need to ensue.It's opinions and the variety of words. The moderators have been chosen by Jeremy and asked to assess these things with a temperate attitude. Ultimately for Linux Questions, Jeremy is the top authority to made final judgement calls.

More generally, rude versus direct is fairly obvious. The times when one person needs to point that out to another person are difficult situations. The one being told of their rudeness can react poorly.

I've been in the midst of composing this reply, including some queries here, and prior to the post of it, there is your additional post:I would say that I am trying to understand the intention of your earlier post, I seem to misunderstand it as well.

1 members found this post helpful.

@jsbjsb001: You might consider that almost none of us can see your infractions, so we really don't know what you're talking about. Maybe take this sidetrack to a private conversation with someone who can? Specifically either Jeremy or the mod that issued them?

What you really should not be doing about it, is complaining in someone else' thread, about infractions that no-one else can see.

Generally speaking, though, YES people with a track record, and an established pattern of behavior, are subject to more scrutiny than new users. That's obviously the way it should be.

2 members found this post helpful.

@jsbjsb001 said,

> It looks like you either have a funny definition of how the world really works, or you're being willfully ignorant.

Well, even though I've been a member (a contributing member at one time, also) here at LQ for a few years, I don't visit as often as some of you do, as you can see from my post count. I have other places online that take up much of my time. That being said, LQ may not be a perfect board, but then what is? It may have issues here and there. Personally, I don't have any complaints. My dealings with Jeremy and the mods here have been a positive experience throughout my time here.

Bottom line: I can't really debate/discuss with you the issues you're speaking of in your above post because I don't experience that here at this place. I can assure you, though, that my view of the world is probably different than yours. That's OK, too. Everyone should have their views, beliefs, opinions.

Best to you,

~Eric

My "track record" is clearly visible to anyone - both the Green and the Yellow/Red.

Once upon a time I was worried about forum moderation, because it didn't seem to be just, democratic, or even reasonable in most cases. Not anymore.

@rtmistler, not sure how you seem to have misunderstood and/or aren't clear about my post #23. But I think vtel57 is right about one thing; there's really no point in discussing it any further for the same reasons. Particularly since I believe we already have discussed certain warnings issued by yourself, and you seem like you've made up your mind and won't move an inch about it.

So I can only suggest you re-read that same post and maybe it will become clearer to you - in any case it's pointless and has already been discussed.

Yes, I know - only the mod's and Jeremy can see them. But this was the point I was making; there is a difference between considering one's history, and holding something against them because they disagreed over whatever, or similar - the latter case isn't fair.

And yes, already done both of those things, and neither Jeremy nor the mod concerned would move an inch.

I was speaking in general as much as I was talking about any warnings/infractions I myself may have gotten - this thread is discussing such matters, so my post was relevant to the thread topic.

Well, as I was saying above; it's one thing to consider one's history, it's another thing to make mod decisions based on not only that, but what one thinks of another personally - this is the point I was making. And no, I'm not talking about all mod's here either, just some.

@vtel57, you say this to begin with:

...and then this:

Hmmmmmmmmmm, "the best to me" indeed

PS: it isn't just about one's "world view" - which is simply just a cop out.

In any case, bye.