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Old 11-27-2016, 03:52 PM   #16
astrogeek
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My personal comments...

Quote:
Originally Posted by browny_amiga View Post
Well, let's take the other most used CMS out there, wordpress, when I install that, it does all this:

... 116+ lines of installed dependencies ...
Sure! What could go wrong with that?!

And why do you think that is a good thing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by browny_amiga View Post
But since Joomla is next to wordpress the most used CMS in the world, it is pretty odd. Especially, since I could not find any reference to why there was no package anywhere.
That is probably the best clue that your own expectations of finding such a package may not be well founded - you should consider why that is, and not just say "WTF!".

The fact that someone does produce such a package for Wordpress on one distro creates the expectation among users that this is normal, and that all such things should be similarly packaged for all distros. That is an ill-founded and unreasonable expectation, in my opinion.

Joomla, Wordpress and other PHP web framework/CMS projects differ significantly and fundamentally from the various system applications and resources normally managed by the system package manager.

Their use case, admin and update requirements, among other things, are vastly different from system level software, and are
not good candidates for management by the system package manager.

Some important aspects that come to mind...

* They are fundamentally, by design, user owned and managed, not a shared system resource
* There are potentially, and commonly, multiple instances of each, owned by multiple users, on a single system
* The installed locations are a function of web site design choices, not knowable by the package manager
* Their ordinary update requirements mandate non-privileged updates, asynchronous of base system state

Trying to cover just these aspects in a package management system is an unreasonable proposition.

I would liken it to a craftsman shopping for drill bits and expecting them to come with drill press, toolbox, work bench and shop lights if not already installed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by browny_amiga View Post
What are the advantages of a manual install in your opinion?
The benefits that derive from the bulleted points above, for starters.

In general, independence from base host system concerns and ability to manage your web application resources without reliance on privileged user resources. That is actually a very important, multi-faceted advantage, and the intended use case.

Installation, use and maintenance of these applications as intended by their maintainers is simple and well documented. The fact that those sources do not include an "apt-get" command is an advantage, and does not in itself make them difficult!

I would urge you to reconsider your own expectation of finding such a package in your distro's repo, and accept that the unavailability of such a package may have reasons other than inconsiderate package maintainers. Understand those reasons, and benefit from the understanding.
 
Old 11-27-2016, 03:54 PM   #17
sneakyimp
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Quote:
Originally Posted by browny_amiga View Post
I see here my attempts to point out the usefulness and importance of a package management system are pointless here.
This may well be true. Perhaps you should write it yourself? Or talk to Joomla and/or Ubuntu and/or Debian about it? I'm sure a lot of people would thank you for saving them 10 minutes.

You might also see if there's a composer install for it. That's what all the lazy noobs are using these days.

And I know you didn't ask, but back in my day, we had to configure an actual server in a rack and write the CMS ourselves! Now get off my lawn.
 
2 members found this post helpful.
Old 11-27-2016, 05:01 PM   #18
BW-userx
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yep. back in my day I had to walk backwards to school up hill both ways. life is a lot easier now days.
 
Old 11-28-2016, 03:20 PM   #19
sneakyimp
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BW-userx View Post
yep. back in my day I had to walk backwards to school up hill both ways. life is a lot easier now days.
I love package managers and use them for Apache, MySQL, PHP, et. al. I'm very suspicious of Composer and PHP package installers but everyone seems to be getting into them. In my opinion, the convenience they offer comes at the expense of security, and I feel InfoSec is seriously neglected these days. My credit card has been stolen something like every six months for the past 2-3 years. I consider myself very, very careful with online purchasing.

It's easy and tempting to depend on code written by someone else, but when you introduce unsafe (and unnecessary) dependencies in your code, you are doing everyone (including yourself) a tremendous disservice. Try cleaning up the mess left when your CMS gets compromised by hackers or try apologizing to your millions of users when their private information gets stolen via an SQL injection exploit.

Progress? Perhaps, but at what cost?
 
  


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