My rant about linux software and YAST
 

When I started using linux as my everyday OS I started with Red Hat and when they dumped me a friend of mine gave me SuSE 9.2 to try and I was hooked...everything (hardware) was found and I've never looked back since...I love what linux has to offer the regular joe user like me. But one burning pet peeve of mine is "dependencies" ... why is it so difficult to include "all" the necessary files in one tarball/rpm...I dont get it. I do realize that size is a big part of it but if the creator of this program cant supply me with the necessary parts why would someone what to try their software?

YAST - this is the most hard to understand module - the software management portion...I like the rest of YAST functions/modules but their software management area is always at best a 30% chance that I'll be able to accomplish what I want...which is simply to install one program...is that so much to ask?
I know that there are other distro's that will help/assist me in resolving these issues better than SuSE has put together.

Any thought of switching distro's is quickly forgotten just do to the fact that I'm not sure the problem wouldnt follow me to that flavor of linux as well.
When I brag about linux to my friends I have to tell them this "Make sure you pick the distro that covers all your needs"...ie...email, scanning, music...because if you dont, you'll probably play hell trying to get a particular program installed.

I dont know what to do about this or which is the best way to think about it...maybe someone here can give me some useful insight about this issue.
When I want a program, I dont want to feel like I'm chasing my tail (dependencies) just to get it to install/work. Thoughts...?

More recent releases of Linux distributions use a repository style of software management which will resolve dependencies for you as well as install them.

RedHat dumped you?? What's that about?
Windows also has dependencies--one reason maybe you dont run into this on Windows is that there really is only one version of Windows---vs 100s for Linux.
As already mentioned, the repository system for the "mainstream" distros takes care of all the dependency hassles.

I now recommend distros based on the package management/repository system. I strongly favor the Debian/Ubuntu/Mepis family---PCLinuxOS also uses the same system. If you like SUSE, at least get the up to date version.

xjlittle/pixellany, perhaps you guys can help me out, because I'm not even sure what cbjhawks is complaining about!

From where? Packages in you're package manager, or packages on the internet?

It is my understanding that Yast handles deps pretty well.

I don't understand. Why exactly is this difficult for you?

Considering that you haven't tried them, how would you know for sure?

yes this would be a port of apt which is the oldest package manager and an integral part of the second oldest linux distribution.

so no whining about lame rpm type distributions allowed.

All modern distributions, whether they user rpm, debs, tgz, pkg etc have some sort of automated tool that automatically resolves dependencies. Personally I have never had any major issues with yast, yum, apt, etc. Maybe the original poster needs to go to the openSUSE website and read up a bit more about how YAST works. This will probably help you get a bit more efficient at using it.

thanks to all who replied...
answer's to some of the comments from above.
Programs via the internet or CD/DVD, tarballs but mostly rpm programs.
My confusion is directed at YAST and resolving rpm dependencies
I started with suse9.2 and now am running opensuse 10.0
I have a ftp repository site that I use from ftp.opensuse.org
YAST provides an "online update", "system update" along the the "software management"...???
My installation source is the ftp site mentioned previously.

Perhaps if I layout how I try to install an rpm:
1) double click the rpm
2) password necessary for YAST
3) YAST starts - refreshs my installation source (ftp site)
4) a box appears giving only two options...install the program without resloving all
depends. issues and risk system stability OR cancel the operation...

How do I get past this box/issue?
yes I will "go back" to the opensuse website and look "again" for more info on YAST
...and what is the purpose for having three wizards (listed above) that have to do with
installation of software...two of them appear to do the same exact thing...install programs...???

Instead of double clicking on rpms, use the rpm command e.g.
Double clicking on rpms can fail if the dependencies are not found in the repos. Using the rpm command will tell you exactly whats missing and you can then try to find the required dependencies. To avoid major dependency problems, make sure that the rpms you are trying to install are meant for your distribution and the version of the distro you are using.

Personally I hardly need to install rpms manually, the opensuse repos have almost everything I need, so I just fire up YAST -> Software -> Software Management, choose the package I need to install and its installed along with its dependencies within a few minutes.

Consider the problem from another point of view: if every package did include "all" necessary files, libraries etc., a lot of packages would include a bunch of different licences which you would separately have to read, one by one, and accept or you couldn't install it. Then you would have to download, for example, same library that you already had from a previous software install, every time you happen to install a program that uses that library. That means a lot of waste on bandwith and space. Included that if a software programmer wanted to create a new fancy thing that saved everybody's souls, but didn't want to rewrite a whole operating system, that programmer would self have to hunt for all dependencies (and by the time they were found, the actual software was based on old software already), their licences, try to cope with the other creators asking if it's okay to include the other software in this package too, possibly pay for redistributing others' code etc..sounds crazy. I see no sense at all in that kind of approach.

The way we are distributing software now is better; it's weakness is dependencies and version conflicts. Dependencies can be solved if needed software is packaged with the same system and made available on-line; this is mostly the case with "big distributions". Version conflicts are a bit difficult one, but handled if distributions ship as versions too, and when enough software is updated, then the whole system is updated at once. And since much of the software is backwards compatible to some extent, it gives some space for the users to move in, when installing software; you don't necessarily have to have some exact version if you don't want to. Of course for the reposities of a distribution it makes no sense having several versions of a package, so often reposities only provide you one -- hopefully new enough -- version.

If you hunt for single packages from the web, it's up to you to hunt the dependencies too. This is what it was before package managers came generally into the picture. Instead try to use the package manager that came with your distribution; it's the easiest choice.

Oh, and if you did want to install something that is not on the reposity..well, source code is available in most cases. And along with it it's often mentioned what other code you need. So you could just as well download those source codes and either compile them yourself or build binary packages and then install them, if nobody has done that already. Many distributions offer, along with the official reposities, somekind of "user contributed packages" section/reposity, that you can install extra software from -- software that is not (yet at least) inluded in the official reposities. Of course at your own response.

With a modern system, that is aimed to do something sensible, you don't need to install software every day; you just install what you need and work with it. It's your own fault if you just like installing new software, updating it all the time to the bleeding-edge beta versions and trying out new stuff somebody told you to.

Why not just install the program from repositories that Suse provides?

I know that not 100% of programs are are available from the distribution supplier, but generally, just about every program you'll ever need is. If the exact program you're trying to install isn't available, there's almost always another program just like it that is available.

thanks to all who replied... for reddazz
 

reddazz - you reminded me of the alternative (perhaps proper way) way of installing rpm's (terminal). I have done "exactly" as you have stated you do when installing programs/rpm's. I go to yast> software> software managerment...but thats where I run into the dependency issues...I quess my setup wont go to the "repository" that it needs or doesnt find the right one...I probably dont have the Installation Source setup correctly. Could that be the issue? How would I setup a "repo" for OpenSuSE 10.0?...thanks a bunch
for your time/input. :)

My rant about linux software and YAST
 

From personal experience I can strongly recommend that cjbhawks does a fresh install of openSUSE 10.2. This OS leaves previous versions in its wake, especially 10.1 which was famously described as a train wreck upon its debut. In 10.1 Yast was an absolute nightmare and extremely slow. It drove me to distraction.
Believe me, 10.2 is in a totally different league. Yast2 is smooth, quick and does installations/dependencies without any problems. Just give it a try. After all, what have you got to lose?

for beachboy2...
 

what do I have to lose...? :)

If I had a single beer for every hour I spent configuring/installing the additional programs that I "painfully" installed "after" I started with OpenSuSE 10.0 I'd be drunk for the next year....(perhaps an overkill but nonetheless its been hard)...I read a linux magazine that provides the newest linux distro for that month and have often thought about upgrading or trying another "easier" distro...but I have to say that I really like SuSE but "dread" the idea of reinstalling all the additional programs just to get the latest kernal/os...is their a shortcut?...

I doubt it, I've been around computer's long enough to understand what "format" means...I'm perfectly happy with what I've got (OpenSuSE 10.0) but I just dont
understand why YAST is so confusing.

Online Updates - doesnt that provide me with patches...only?
System Updates - my installation source is refreshed 3X before an install window opens...but regardless of which program I pick (Banshee) I'm provided a box that states several dependencies issues/errors...my choices are to "OK Try again"..."Ignore All"..."Expert"...or cancel...nothing about resloving dependencies...
Software Management - pretty much does the same thing as System Updates....


I just dont get it (Yast).....:(

I also recommend reinstalling. You messed up your system because you did not know what you were doing. You will continue to have problems because you _still_ don't know.

The #1 rule of package managers(yast, urpmi, apt-get) is this:
Avoid installing software from tarballs at virtually all costs! Install from repositories always.

Unless there is absolutley no package available for a given program, that is the only time you should install from tarballs. Even then, it can be risky to your system.

cbjhawks;

I get the distinct impression that you do not like Yast......;) Perhaps it is time to move on. I now recommend distros that use apt/synaptic---eg Mepis, Ubuntu, PCLinuxOS.

I also recommend less ranting and more short, specific, questions. To me Linux is well worth it, but it does take patience at times...