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Old 08-29-2013, 01:21 AM   #1
waddles
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Faded colors when layer saved


I may be confused about transparency. I presumed it to mean super positioned layers needed to be transparent. But the technique I am using sets the base layer to 50% transparent and my single upper layer is has an opacity of transparent. Don't know why base layer is set that way. I mention this as it may affect the answer.
When I delete the base layer and save the upper layer it is saved as a .png file.
The colors I use to paint the upper layer with are vibrant red, green, cyan, and magenta in the color palette but on the upper layer magenta comes off as pale green, red is light pink, and green is pale green. Why do these colors become so wimpy light? Is there a way to make the colors the same as they were when selected in the foreground colors? I had to convert the png to gif and recolor in kpaint. How can I avoid this last step?

Last edited by waddles; 08-29-2013 at 01:25 AM.
 
Old 08-29-2013, 02:30 AM   #2
qlue
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I will presume you're using GIMP as you don't mention which software you're using.
What mode is the layer set to? what are the colours in the underlying layers?
Transparency reduces the effect of a layer. If the layer is set to 'normal' then nothing will show through from the lower layers except where the layer is transparent. However, most of the mode affect the way the layer is transferred.

For example, 'overlay' has a very subtle effect on lower layers and if the opacity is set to 100%, it still acts like it's transparent.
Some mode, like 'grain extract' or 'difference' can invert colours and create a variety of effects that change colours.

Can you save an example in .xcf format and post it here? then we can see exactly what's happening and possibly suggest a way to achieve the effect you're looking for.
 
Old 08-29-2013, 03:21 AM   #3
waddles
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Sorry! It is GIMP 2.6.
The only upper layer is created SHIFT+CRTL+N and as I said is set transparent. Not using any tricky layering. Which is why I wonder about the fading. Could it be due to the base layer being 50% opaque? Why should I even be setting it or should it be 0% opacity to get true colors. The base layer contains reds, blues, oranges, etc. from a sporting event crowd.
For the testing the base material is copy writed so hazard to copy it.
Modes for both layers is Normal.

Last edited by waddles; 08-29-2013 at 03:22 AM.
 
Old 08-29-2013, 03:56 PM   #4
qlue
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Okay, I'm still not completely clear what you are doing there. However, based on what you've said, it sounds like you may be using a brush setting that is not fully opaque.
Airbrush will almost always be slightly transparent and all brushes can have their opacity reduced. The default is normally 100% opacity though.
You mention using a 'technique' of some sort. Is this;
a.) a technique you've developed yourself,
b.) a tutorial you're following or,
c.) a script or 'plugin' or similar automated tool?

You say the upper layer is set transparent. That would be the layer fill type setting right? That would usually be correct. If the layer mode is normal, and the layer opacity is 100%, then nothing should show through whatever you paint on it. However, everything should show through around what you paint in the areas you haven't painted.

You delete the 'base' layer before saving. What are you using that base layer for? Are you just tracing an outline over it or is it meant to affect what you see in the finished image?
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Old 08-29-2013, 04:16 PM   #5
John VV
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well if you delete the base layer and the top is set to 50% transparent
then it WILL look a bit "washed out" seeing as it is set to 50% transparent
 
Old 08-30-2013, 05:55 AM   #6
waddles
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@glue:
"technique" refers to the steps I am taking to effect the outcome.
Am using "the" brush not "airbrush".
Yes, the layer fill type setting.
I do not set the opacity on the upper layer so it is whatever the default would be.
I think U R rubbing up against what may be an error of concept I have of transparancy. U said:
"layer opacity is 100%, then nothing should show through whatever you paint on it."
I am presuming the upper layer is transparent and can see everything in the base layer. Hence why am I setting opacity of the base layer? I further presume that painting on the upper layer stays on the upper layer unless merged via a saving of some sort.
UR statement:
"However, everything should show through around what you paint in the areas you haven't painted." confused me as it seems as if there is something special about "areas I haven't painted"?
I see the base layer below the upper layer where I am painting.
My interest is in extracting the upper layer only but would like to have the bright colors selected from the foreground color 'palette'.
@JohnVV:
Agree but that is NOT what I am doing. I do not set an opacity for the second layer and it is set to be and is transparent. Is the setting of the base layer to an opacity of 50% somehow linked to that and see my query to glue, i.e. does setting of base to 50% cause upper layer colors to be reduced by 50%?? I have NO idea why the base needs opacity setting. I do not see why the base needs to be anything but full opacity if one is selectively adding or subtracting or overpainting. Me ignorant.
 
Old 08-30-2013, 07:58 AM   #7
qlue
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Ok, the 'Fill Layer Type' determines what will happen when you erase something. it's kind of like a 'background' but only for that layer.

What I don't understand is why you need the base layer at all if you delete it before saving?
And try as I might, I've been unable to reproduce the results you report. (although I think I'm just not understanding what you are doing)
 
Old 08-30-2013, 02:01 PM   #8
John VV
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i too am lost , and i have been using gimp for 10+ years

can you post the tutorial you are fallowing

it almost sounds like you might be using a Adobe Photoshop tutorial with gimp

if all you are doing is painting an a "new" transparent layer that is on top of the base layer , it is going to need to be a bit transparent while you paint ( so you can see the image below it )
but then just move the slider to 100% before you save it
and if you do not need it to be transparent you might want to "flatten" it first
if you are saving to a jpg it will be flattened and nasty artifacts will be added
 
Old 08-31-2013, 02:41 AM   #9
waddles
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@glue:
Base layer is printed along side of the upper layer as a reference.
Am appending tutorial after remarks for JohnVV.
@JohnVV:
The upper layer is identified as "Transparency" and I found no slider to adjust.
All files in and out are .gif.
Here is the tutorial:
Code:
For GIMP 2.6:
1) In GIMP window:
   File > Open
   Select .gif image for base layer
   Open
2) CTRL-L to get Layers menu
   Click "Background"
   Set Opacity to 50.0
   Lock image so it will remain unchanged
3) Create upper layer:
   SHIFT+CTRL+N to get "Create New Layer" menu
   Change nothing.  Layer fill type is already set to: Transparency
   Click OK
4) Click Paintbrush tool
   Select Opacity of 100.0
   Select Scale of 1.0
   Select Brush > Circle of 2
5) Click Foreground & Background colors to get "Change Foreground Color" menu.
   The following steps are used to create a few of the colors needed:
     Move crosshairs to obtain color desired.
     Click on the right arrow button to move that color into one of 12 color boxes.
   Select a color from a color box
   Click OK
6) Use Paintbrush to draw line on what will be upper layer.
   Repeat 5,6 as needed.
7) When finished drawing:
   CTRL-L for Layers menu
   Click "Background"
   Click "Delete this layer"
8) To save upper layer:
   File > Save as
   Enter name for upper layer to be saved as
   Click Save
   In the Save As menu:
     Leave Interlace unchecked
     "GIF Comment" and "Loop Forever" are both checked; leave them.
     "Frame disposal where unspecified" is left as "I don't care".
     "Delay between frames where unspecified" is 100 ms.
   Click Save

Use Okular to view upper layer image saved.
Both upper and base layers are .gif files and when viewed with Okular the base layer colors are vibrant while the upper layer colors are drab or washed out depending on the color. Tho I do not color the base layer the colors there are similar in vibrancy to those selected from the foreground palette.
 
Old 08-31-2013, 03:09 AM   #10
John VV
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so this is a gif
that explains a lot
there are ONLY 255 INDEXED colors
and only ONE level of transparency
in a gif it is on or off
there is no 50% in a gif
it is transparent or it is NOT
one or the other
1 or 0
there is no in between
 
Old 08-31-2013, 07:36 PM   #11
waddles
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OK on 255 colors.
Are U saying that by turning opacity to 50% on the base layer that this is turning its transparency on? Or is it turning the upper layer non-transparent? How is that causing the color selected from the "foreground colors" palette change from a nearly a pure red to a near dingy purple outside of the palette on the upper layer? Are U saying that all .gifs turn color to that pale color? If so why are the colors on the base layer nice and bright as compared to the upper layer?

























































































































d \
 
Old 08-31-2013, 07:53 PM   #12
John VV
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a gif is an "indexed" image format
as such there is a very limited amount of work that can be done on them
you can NOT use a Gaussian blur on them
yes you can unindex them , put a blur on it and reindex it

you can not use an enlarging algorithm on them to smooth the edges and "de-sawtooth "them
yes you can unindex them , enlarge it and then reindex it

color is NOT interpreted upon a change
it is looked up from a table of colors on a premade "palliate"
and gifs ware all the rage back in the 1987 when they were new


You work with indexed image formats VERY VERY differently than with NON-indexed images
 
  


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