Debian is pushing to vote on init system lock-in and package requirements

szboardstretcher · 10-16-2014, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Debian has decided (via the technical committee) to change its default init system for the next release. The technical committee decided not to decide about the question of "coupling" i.e. whether other packages in Debian may depend on a particular init system. This GR seeks to preserve the freedom of our users now to select an init system of their choice, and the project's freedom to select a different init system in the future. It will avoid Debian becoming accidentally locked in to a particular init system (for example, because so much unrelated software has ended up depending on a particular init system that the burden of effort required to change init system becomes too great). A number of init systems exist, and it is clear that there is not yet broad consensus as to what the best init system might look like.

https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote.../msg00001.html

I wonder if this means that they will dis-allow gnome-shell as it has hard requirements in systemd.

hendrickxm · 10-17-2014, 07:52 AM

Switch to systemd so you will not be able to use any software that hard-depends on it. Great solution.

ReaperX7 · 10-19-2014, 04:36 AM

https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote...ads.html#00154

Expanded list. Yeah the fight against systemd is starting to take off seriously. I think the TC bit off more than they could chew, and now its biting back. Ian Jackson may be loud, but he understands UNIX philosophy.

It even seems they're calling into question Lennart and Kay's practices of not dealing with bugs.

https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote.../msg00061.html

k3lt01 · 10-19-2014, 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReaperX7

Ian Jackson may be loud, but he understands UNIX philosophy.

This is a lame argument when even Torvolds himself, I quoted it in another thread, doesn't really think the "Unix philosophy" is the be all and end all. What I really don't get is why the loud minority always cling to this relic of the dinosaur age when the guy who invented the kernel they use doesn't.

ReaperX7 · 10-19-2014, 05:58 AM

Believing in the UNIX philosophy is fickle, but we all know in practice the philosophy works extremely well and fosters great levels of innovation on many fronts, even including using old software in new ways.

Linus doesn't need to believe in it. It's we the users, package builders, system maintainers, and network and system administrators that must believe in it.

k3lt01 · 10-19-2014, 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReaperX7

Believing in the UNIX philosophy is fickle,

I would suggest it is quite emotive and is a tool used used to take discussions way of track. Linux is not certified as Unix so there is no requirement for it to adhere to the Unix philosophy. Those who want strict adherence to the Unix philosophy may feel more at home using Mac OSX (which is Unix certified). I'd like to see how they feel being locked into Apple's ideologies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReaperX7

but we all know in practice the philosophy works extremely well and fosters great levels of innovation on many fronts, even including using old software in new ways.

We also know it should not be used to stop innovation which is what happens when loud minorities get their way. Look at the Unix poster boy of Apple (Mac OSX), Apple doesn't support innovation infact it stifles it with its continuing patent disputes. Stifling competition stifles innovation, yes systemd may be doing just that but the point is so is the main publicly known certified Unix system.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReaperX7

Linus doesn't need to believe in it. It's we the users, package builders, system maintainers, and network and system administrators that must believe in it.

How far do you, a user, think you'll get using Linux if Linus locks you out because your philosophy doesn't agree with his and he goes a separate way to that which you think is "Unixy".