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Old 12-06-2010, 10:17 AM   #1
Ricalsin
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Editor vs. IDE advice


I'm new to Linux. I've heard of the "Editor Wars." I don't need war. Can I please get a quick list of what people like best about both? I'm sure each has it's merits.

I've found vim to be confusing - as loading it from Synaptic doesn't even result in an icon in the Applications folder, but does appear to affect the CLI, which prompts me to unload it since I'm lost regarding it. I'm obviously missing something...

I've loaded XEMACS and yet it appears to be rather klunky, but I've heard that there are significant plug-ins to turn it into whatever you want. Can someone say what it is that works for them?

WHAT I'M WANTING: I'm doing php/html/css/etc on linux-based platforms (Concrete5). I thought I'd try an IDE just to see if I'd like it for the ability to find classes and methods within existing architecture - ya know, to limit grepping of files, dumping, etc; essentially, to be more effective in building upon frameworks. I'm not sure that I'll like the big huge interface of an IDE as I find them (netBeans) more restrictive and troublesome - especially when trying to work within a complex framework like Concrete5. (Do you think that's accurate?) I also wanted to try a debugger, like xdebug - which also prompted the interest in eclipse as I thought it might be interesting. I'm not really sure if this is valuable as a loop is a loop is a loop; meaning, it appears the time it takes to set up the debug code you could simply make a few runs at it and fix it based on the output. (Do you think that is accurate?) BTW, setting up Eclipse to work with Subversion (on a local) - which requires subclipse - has been a nightmare. I'll continue my effort if I can get some positive feedback on the value of it.

It seems that there might be a more lightweight environment that is capable of giving me the basic information I want (pre-existing architecture) while not conflicting with the frameworks I'm trying to work in.

I'm setting up RapidSVN as my Subversion GUI.

Thank you for your input in helping a newbie to get started!
 
Old 12-06-2010, 11:28 AM   #2
Snark1994
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I use emacs - I find the shortcuts easy to remember and use, and I find vi plain confusing... I haven't really got into the customisation, but as you said, there seems to be almost limitless scope for plugins if you have enough time But 'vanilla' emacs is good enough for me. I tend to use it in the terminal with 'emacs -nw', and use gedit for editing in a GUI
 
Old 12-06-2010, 12:16 PM   #3
Noway2
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I use Vim. You could actually duplicate Snark1994's and substitute vim for Emacs and have my take. I like the fact that I don't have to deal with CTRL and ALT key combinations to perform various functions and all the 'modes' of Emacs seem confusing to me. I will admit, though, that if I wanted an IDE, I would be inclined to go with Emacs before a specific IDE like Eclipse. Once you learn the shortcuts, moving around your document in Vim is fast and easy. Making insertions, deletions, etc is quite powerful. Some of the commands that I use most include gg, and G to go to the start and end of the document, dd to delete a line, y and P to yank and paste. In my opinion, it is fast, easy and elegant.
 
Old 12-06-2010, 12:17 PM   #4
barriehie
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Vim, it's fast and highly customisable. Gvim for a gui.
 
Old 12-06-2010, 12:36 PM   #5
Ricalsin
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Thank you. Nice starting points for a newbie. Much appreciated.

I'm reading up on the two editors. Any other suggestions is much appreciated as - I'm sure you guys know - a lot of time can get lost going down the wrong (or, least advantageous) road.

Last edited by Ricalsin; 12-06-2010 at 02:20 PM. Reason: found my own answers to my previous post
 
Old 12-06-2010, 04:49 PM   #6
barriehie
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Vim comes with a tutor; from the CLI:
Code:
$ > vimtutor
will get you started on the basics of moving around in your document and editing. It may seem a bit weird at first if you're used to using a mouse but after a bit you'll pick up a speed advantage by being able to keep your hands over the keyboard. You'll probably want to add/enable a few things to make it more useful. I've added buffer tabs, displays your open files and F2 cycles through the files, a sudo plugin to edit root only files, a most recent used file list, and I'm working on sequential backup routine. < <<- bad sentence. > Here's a link for you: http://vim.wikia.com/wiki/Vim_Tips_Wiki If you're interested in my .vimrc just post.

HTH
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Old 12-06-2010, 05:38 PM   #7
Ricalsin
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@barriehie: Thanks. I've read an old (2006) editor survey where guys posted some interesting information on each. For me, I'm not interested in non-editing/debugging features in the editor I work with. Plus I like the look of vim (nice screenshot).

I notice that my ubuntu 10.10 (maverick) repository supports the earlier version of vim (7.2) with the new release (7.3) having come out back in August. But Launchpad does not have any downloads or PPA's for Vim. It also makes this statement: Vim is an almost compatible version of the UNIX editor Vi - can you tell me what that means?

The new (7.3) release is two years in the making so I assume it's worth chasing down, but is there a concern with the flavor of linux (ubuntu) I'm using and the version (maverick) with regards to getting the right vim binaries?

Also, does any editor provide a means (plug-in?) to chase down the architecture of a framework for web development - like concrete5? I've used c5 for a bit now and really like it. I'm wanting to write some custom blocks for it (PHP) and thought an IDE-type supply of information (classes / methods / objects) might help the process. Or is that asking too much from an editor like Vim or XEmacs? If so, I'd rather go lighter (Vim) because I know enough of the framework as is, rather than heavier (Eclipse / netBeans) and burden myself with too much of an interface. (Unless someone has experience to the contrary.)
 
Old 12-06-2010, 07:04 PM   #8
markush
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Hello Ricalsin,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricalsin View Post
...It seems that there might be a more lightweight environment that is capable of giving me the basic information I want (pre-existing architecture) while not conflicting with the frameworks I'm trying to work in...
well, the lightweight en(vi)ron(m)ent you're looking for is vim
Quote:
I notice that my ubuntu 10.10 (maverick) repository supports the earlier version of vim (7.2) with the new release (7.3) having come out back in August. But Launchpad does not have any downloads or PPA's for Vim ...
... The new (7.3) release is two years in the making so I assume it's worth chasing down, but is there a concern with the flavor of linux (ubuntu) I'm using and the version (maverick) with regards to getting the right vim binaries?
Don't bother about vim 7.2 or 7.3, the version doesn't matter.
Quote:
It also makes this statement: Vim is an almost compatible version of the UNIX editor Vi - can you tell me what that means?
vi was the original, there are some derivatives like elvis, nvi etc and vim is the most popular of them and comes with many additional features the original vi did not have. But you may use the commands of the original vi with vim, they will all work.
Quote:
... Also, does any editor provide a means ...
Vim comes with syntax-highlighting for every language/tool you can think of. Vim has it's own macrolanguage and is highly configurable.

Vim is really worth learning although frustrating at first sight. Vim is very fast when editing large textfiles and it is easy to navigate through the files.

The only disadvantage of vim (or generally vi) is: once you've learned to use it, you'll never be able to use another editor. This is my experience. Fortunately vim is available not only for every Linuxdistribution but for almost every OS including Windows.

Markus
 
Old 12-06-2010, 07:19 PM   #9
barriehie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricalsin View Post
@barriehie: Thanks. I've read an old (2006) editor survey where guys posted some interesting information on each. For me, I'm not interested in non-editing/debugging features in the editor I work with. Plus I like the look of vim (nice screenshot).

I notice that my ubuntu 10.10 (maverick) repository supports the earlier version of vim (7.2) with the new release (7.3) having come out back in August. But Launchpad does not have any downloads or PPA's for Vim. It also makes this statement: Vim is an almost compatible version of the UNIX editor Vi - can you tell me what that means?

The new (7.3) release is two years in the making so I assume it's worth chasing down, but is there a concern with the flavor of linux (ubuntu) I'm using and the version (maverick) with regards to getting the right vim binaries?

...muted...
You can get diff. color themes; I've got a bunch but like the dark background. In regards to the version I ended up dl'ing the source for my distro and compiling instead of using the binaries. It's much quicker. Made sense to do that since my terminal always starts off with a vim server in a tab. Regarding the diffs between vi and vim I don't know. I used to use emacs but since it's not part of a stock install, at least for the distros I've used, I had to always install/setup the editor before I could configure the system; became tired of that.
 
Old 12-06-2010, 08:32 PM   #10
Ricalsin
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Guys, thanks for your answers.

Is the question about either editor pulling information from a framework (classes, objects, methods) and presenting it to the programmer (like an ide) NOT being addressed because it is not possible?
 
Old 12-07-2010, 05:46 AM   #11
Noway2
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It is possible, to an extent at least. There are some plug ins for Vim that will help. You might want to look at one called ctags or exuberant ctags, which will give you There is also one that will provide a source browser window, like is typical in an IDE, I think a common one is called tag list. You should also familiarize yourself with the concept of buffers and windows as this will help you view multiple documents within the open editor. Syntax highlighting will make your work a lot easier by showing you the keywords for the stuff you are working on. Once you configure VIM the way you want, you can create a .vimrc file that will save this configuration. You can configure it to run compilers, etc from the command line, giving you this function of an IDE also. For some things, I have found Gedit to be a good substitute, especially when working on a GUI environment.

Remember, though, that Vim is a text editor. There is a fundamental Unix philosophy that says do one thing and do it well. Vim was designed in line with this philosophy. This can be frustrating if coming from a Windows / MS Office mind set where there is an ever increasing focus on formatting and visual presentation. Once you get away from that, you will reach the point where you absolutely can't stand the WYSIWYG ways of office and will have a hard time using anything other than Vim. I am one of those and when forced to run Windows, one of the first things I do is put Cygwin on it to pull up a text box interface and have things like Vim.
 
Old 12-07-2010, 06:04 AM   #12
markush
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noway2 View Post
...will have a hard time using anything other than Vim. I am one of those and when forced to run Windows, one of the first things I do is put Cygwin on it to pull up a text box interface and have things like Vim.
same thing here. I'm using vim on Windows since they don't have suitable editors for editing scripts (which are necessary even in the M$ world when administrating servers).

Off topic: I don't use cygwin, but one can install vim on a USB-drive as an executable. In a Windows environment there is a variable %cd% which is current directory. So you may create a batchfile in the rootdirectory of an USB-drive (which then is independend of the name of the drive
Code:
%cd%\Vim\vim73\gvim.exe
and a doubleclick on this batchfile opens gvim. You may as well create a .vimrc in this environment.

Markus
 
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Old 12-07-2010, 11:10 AM   #13
Snark1994
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barriehie View Post
Vim comes with a tutor; from the CLI:
Code:
$ > vimtutor
will get you started on the basics of moving around in your document and editing.
Hm, maybe I shall give this a go never seen it before. If I convert from emacs then you're to blame/thank...
 
Old 12-07-2010, 11:35 AM   #14
barriehie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snark1994 View Post
Hm, maybe I shall give this a go never seen it before. If I convert from emacs then you're to blame/thank...
You'll find it blazingly fast... I just loaded my squid domain blocking file, 25 megs, faster than I could count to 1. Might have to compile it for your architecture to get max speed. You'll also find it, in my case, about 1/3 the size of emacs. I compiled with 'big' option. If you start vim like such:
Code:
vim --servername some_server_name
you'll end up with an instance you can dump files in from your file manager. Custom command, from thunar:
Code:
vim --servername vimserver --remote-tab %f
I'm going to quit digressing now...

HTH
 
Old 12-07-2010, 06:46 PM   #15
Ricalsin
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Smile

Thanks!

I have found some interesting things that others might find useful too:

1). Vim is extremely powerful - essentially able to provide more information than an IDE (like Eclipse) with even more powerful editing capability.

2) I learn by a combination of reading and then some videos, but vim youTube videos are usually of the kind where the presenter has limited excitement for what he is doing and/or attempts to mystify his skills in an attempt to look cool (I guess: I can't really figure some people out.) But then I found two great INSTRUCTORS of Vim using videos. One is Derek Wyatt and the other is Rick Harding. These two guys are great INSTRUCTORS and TEACHERS. It's hard to chase down great tutorials like these, so I hope it helps others looking to discover where they should spend their valuable time.

a) Check out this advanced tutorial from Derek: ....then scrounge around on his website for all the other tutorials. This guy is fun, articulate, knowledgeable and passionate about programming in general and with Vim in particular - a relatively difficult combination to find in an online tutorial.

b) Check out this high-resolution video from Rick Harding on youtube regarding Vim Splits. But remember to go back to his website www.lococast.net for other tutorials and info. He's great too.

Now, once you are done checking these videos out you will be motivated to learn the basics of Vim to get yourself up to the level needed to do this type of work. The first and best place to start is with the supplied vim tutorial - as barriehie mentioned. That tutorial is a well-crafted "step-by-step" process to get you over the initial hurdle that stops many people from learning the beauty of Vim. You'll be motivated to learn this tutorial if you watch those videos because you'll see the rainbow ahead.

Thanks for all of the posts and help. I even did my first download / configur / make / install for Vim 7.3

Linux Rocks!
 
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