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Old 06-03-2003, 05:51 AM   #46
Kroenecker
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I feel that using those three key words is a good way to break up each subject. And including a misc. type category (Did you know?) helps to deal with any leaks. I think that the next big step has to be agreement upon what falls into what category. I am a total newbie, but where does doublechecking the status of your system fall? Would that be in filesystems? If that sort of thing is already included in the list above, I have simply revealed my ignorance. Sorry Maybe that is a part of integrity. Maybe that spans more than one. That of course, will be the key. Regardless, someone with the knowhow should put up what they feel is a comprehensive list concerning each of the three categories. Then those people in the know can really evaluate whether or not the three categories above genuinely can be separated and worked on by three groups of individuals. That's what I think should naturally follow.

If you ask me, it looks good.
 
Old 06-03-2003, 09:12 AM   #47
tangle
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I would be willing to proof read and actually setup a system using this.

If I had a how-to (tutorial) on something. Who would I send it to, to have it looked at?
 
Old 06-03-2003, 11:08 AM   #48
unSpawn
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Kroenecker: thanks for thinking out loud (kinda reminds me of usability testing), it sure helps to see how newbies look at it to help us decide if we gotta realign stuff. For now I wouldn't worry about which goes where, it's just that I'm trying to get an idea of completeness.

Tangle: thanks for joining! Having some people do an actual install following the tutorial will be the final (and very necessary) test. If we get this project moving on, that point could be reached in about two, max three, weeks I guesstimate. In the meantime, if you find any docs not already mentioned in this thread that are about security AND look like written with newbies in mind, then I would appreciate it if you post the link.

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Old 06-03-2003, 11:24 AM   #49
fancypiper
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Random thought:

Elementary security would start with disabling un-needed services before connecting to a network/internet, I would think.

1. How would a newbie find out what services are running? I am sort of lost for command line tools for Redhat, Mandrake and the "newbieized distros" seem to have changed their service daemon files and strange new scripts are appearing in old plain text config files. Are there common command line configuration files that can be pointed to when the clickety-clicky breaks? I seem to be getting more and more lost with the changes those distros have made.

2. How would the newbie turn off those services and know what ones to leave on? That was my major puzzle untill I installed Gentoo. That is the only distro I feel real comfortable with now and I hesitate to recommend it to newbies because of today's instant grattitude attitude.

I made a rhyme!
 
Old 06-03-2003, 11:51 AM   #50
unSpawn
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Elementary security would start with disabling un-needed services before connecting to a network/internet, I would think.
Yes, I thought about that too. If I transmogrify that thought to the tut setup, it would mean having a pre-install, installtime and post-install division?

I am sort of lost for command line tools (..)
I spose you mean apps like "chkconfig"? Good point. CLI service apps.

How would the newbie turn off those services and know what ones to leave on? That was my major puzzle untill I installed Gentoo.
Ok, how do they fix that problem then? Are they SYSV compatible? (I'd think so) Hell, even Slack has got SYSV compatibility :-]
I think we could well post a list of services, how to recognize 'em and how to shut them down for both SYSV and BSD-stylee distro's. Next thing to worry about then would be what it would break :-]
 
Old 06-03-2003, 12:24 PM   #51
fancypiper
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No, Gentoo went with an understandable layout

rc-update add <service> default
rc-update del <service> default

And files such as
/etc/conf.d/local.start
/etc/conf.d/local.stop

init system doc

Last edited by fancypiper; 06-03-2003 at 12:32 PM.
 
Old 06-03-2003, 01:21 PM   #52
tcaptain
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Hmmmm I'm mostly familiar with the Mandrake and RH 'standards' and somewhat with Slack...

I think if you go with basic explanation of how linux boots with a caveat that different distros have scripts that differ (you could point them to relevant links maybe).

BTW I think chkconfig is mandrake specific? Or mdk and redhat?

Damn...this is more complex than I thought....I should have remembered what I learned at programmer skool ie: The simpler and more user friendly you want your UI to be, the more work you have to do on the back end
 
Old 06-03-2003, 07:18 PM   #53
jeremy
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Just wanted to add that I think that a general reference that would help the *average* Linux user (reasonably) secure their first or second Linux install would be a great benefit to the community in general. Instilling a sense of security when a user is new will also help them make better decisions as they learn to do more powerful (and therfore possibly more dangerous) things. While I think it will require a good amount of work, in the end it will be worth it. That being said - I'm in...

--jeremy
 
Old 06-03-2003, 08:56 PM   #54
twilli227
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Have to agree with fancypiper on the use of the cli. I am not afraid or intimidated by it, but alot of people are. I would like to learn more, and think this would be good even in a newbie tutorial. The more people see it actually work, hopefully will get over their fear of it.
chkconfig is included with RH. Something else to learn
 
Old 06-04-2003, 06:01 AM   #55
Axo
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I'm not sure if it will help , but being a newbie i'm willing to proof read and then setup my system using the tutorial,I guess that way i could give feed back, on what i understand going through the steps and what i dont ( looking through newbie eyes ) . And i figure the best way to learn is to get involved.

Regards
AXO

ps i also write down every step i make , without actually understanding whats going on , so i guess what i'm getting at is , actually explaining what's happening an why its happening ,that way "us" newbies should get a better grasp and understanding of the concept's being used .
( dont mind me , just thinking out loud )
 
Old 06-04-2003, 06:41 AM   #56
unSpawn
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No, Gentoo went with an understandable layout
Fancypiper: LOL! Btw, thnx for pointing me to the init docs (didn't read 'em good yet). Does Gentoo have any SYSV compatibility?


I think if you go with basic explanation of how linux boots(..)
Damn...this is more complex than I thought.

Tcaptain: yes we'll have to cover the basics, the rest'll be in the "from init to prompt" Bootprompt-HOWTO.
Complex? Yeah, I think this'll approximate having to write a user manual for an app you don't have all the details for...

Jeremy/AXO: thnx for joining in.

Twilli227: I agree the CLI will need to be the baseline, else we'll punish ourselves having to describe all different sorts of per-vendor GUI's :-] I think the real "problem" will be finding the balance between providing enough information so the user will be using the CLI in a confident manner and "general" instructions that will benefit those who refuse to use the CLI (for whatever reason) as well...

AXO: Thnx testing out the tutorial with a setup will be usefull.
ps i also write down every step i make , without actually understanding whats going on , so i guess what i'm getting at is , actually explaining what's happening an why its happening ,that way "us" newbies should get a better grasp and understanding of the concept's being used .
Yes, that's the basis for this tutorial. We need newbies to be able to make their own decisions, based on good info.


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Old 06-04-2003, 01:14 PM   #57
tcaptain
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Quote:
Originally posted by unSpawn
Tcaptain: yes we'll have to cover the basics, the rest'll be in the "from init to prompt" Bootprompt-HOWTO.
Complex? Yeah, I think this'll approximate having to write a user manual for an app you don't have all the details for...

Well not quite, we have all the details AVAILABLE (even if *WE* don't know them) That's what's great about linux...the truth is out there (don't mind me, been watching X-Files season one DVD set).

Its more about how to distill something very detailed and complex into a very simple without getting too bogged down.

As it is, I think we won't be writing a FAQ or a help file...but a real book!
 
Old 06-04-2003, 05:46 PM   #58
unSpawn
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As it is, I think we won't be writing a FAQ or a help file...but a real book!
Ha, hmm, hope it's not me writing it.
Anyway, I think it's about time I parse what we all spoke about.
I'll try and make a list of it and post it back. Maybe that will give us all a better idea where we're heading.
 
Old 06-04-2003, 08:24 PM   #59
Kroenecker
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Testing the tutorial

Unspawn,

Just to give you some background...I'm working in Japan as an English teacher and one of the staff at my school has taken an interest to my talk about Linux. We will be doing an install on an old computer soon so that we can play around with it.

I would like to test the tutorial by installing on one of the machines here at my school. I don't know what kind of popularity level Linux has here in Japan, but I would like to do my bit to bring the Linux experience to people around me.
 
Old 06-06-2003, 06:46 AM   #60
unSpawn
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Sounds cool. Especially since it's gonna be all new to you. I hope you'll tell us sometime what it's like using Linux/GNU overthere. I don't know about Linux/GNU popularity in Japan, but since a few distro's have added eastern langugae support I suppose it's a growing market. Only OSS "product" I know comes from Japan is the "all-in-one" proxy called Delegate which supports, filters and translates at least 10 protocols.

A note to all who joined this project.
1. Ok, I know I should come up with a summary for what we spoke about that, I'm on it and I should have it posted before end of this week.
2. Would any of you object to taking this discussion to a mailinglist?
I'll ask Jeremy if he's able to allow us one.
3. I would like to welcome our new member Brian to the project
<group>Hello Brian</group>. He will be helping us with advice and validating we don't write anything that will have the user fubar.
Some of you may know Brian as one of the people behind Onsight.com, or maybe had the pleasure of attending one of his lectures, but most of you will know him from "Hacking Linux Exposed". I am gratefull for his willingness to collaborate with us.
Besides that he's a real prankster, so watch out :-]


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