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cordedpoodle 09-10-2003 01:02 PM

Total Frustration With Mozilla
 
RedHat 9 KDE

I installed the latest Mozilla.

Now can't find it. So far no one can tell me were to find it. The "Search for File" function is useless.

What is the name of the file? and how can I find it?

Thanks in advance.:mad: :mad:

rberry88 09-10-2003 01:30 PM

Did you un-install (delete) the previous version of Mozilla before installing the new version?? If not then you will have to do some digging to find the new mozilla folder. If you did then I'm not sure how to help if the 'locate' command is not working from a console.

rberry88

cordedpoodle 09-10-2003 02:38 PM

no I did not un-install the previous version.

One thing no one has been able to tell me is if the console is the same as the terminal. I can't find a console.

rberry88 09-10-2003 03:10 PM

Since you are using Kde, on the bottom of your screen there is an icon of a monitor with a seashell on it. If you hover your mouse over this icon it should say "Konsole". This should be sufficient for you to do what you are trying to do.

rberry88

cordedpoodle 09-10-2003 04:08 PM

There is no seashell icon. I installed both KDE and Gnome on the advice of a friend. However I was able to find the Konsole now that I know the correct spelling.

cordedpoodle 09-10-2003 04:13 PM

I tried the Konsole. It told me the same thing that the terminal told me.

usr/bin/mozilla

there is no mozilla in usr/bin

Genesee 09-10-2003 04:21 PM

first, you'd probably have to type: "/usr/bin/mozilla" - note the first forward slash.

did you try typing "locate *mozilla*" in a console? (without the quotes)

you may want to use "locate *mozilla* | more" if it scrolls off the top of the screen

:cool:

cordedpoodle 09-10-2003 05:40 PM

locate mozilla give me a list of about 100 files.

is the console the Konsole? ? ?

Arrrg!

All I want to do is find the actual Mozilla 1.4 file. Jeeze what a mess this OS is. I would also like to have it in the start menu but at this point I'm wondering if I'll ever get good enough to do something like that.

I found a file called Mozilla but when I click twice on it it tells me it's a shell script and then asks if i want to run it in the terminal or run the program. All I want to do it run the program without having ot run another program to run the program to start Mozilla. This is insane.

eltongeoff 09-10-2003 06:14 PM

dude ur kinda whiney.

anyway, do this command

type mozilla

and it should tell u where it is.
try looking as root, mebbe it's not in your path or u don't have access to some of the dirs.

and how did u install it?

Genesee 09-10-2003 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by eltongeoff
dude ur kinda whiney.

indeed.

as for 100's of files, that's why you can use "locate *mozilla* | more" - that will allow you to scroll thru the list of files containing the word mozilla. presumably that's what you're looking for.

yes, Konsole is a console. "console" is a generic term for the type of application. Konsole is a particular program that serves as a console.

there is no "actual" mozilla file - it's a collection of files. there is a single file that is used to launch the program, which should be called "mozilla," and is usually located in the dir "/usr/bin" have you tried typing "/usr/bin/mozilla" in a Konsole window?

if you right-click in the background or taskbar, you can create a new launcher, or icon, or whatever kde calls it. then you can click on that to launch mozilla without having to use a console.

cordedpoodle 09-10-2003 08:17 PM

Yeah, I know I'm whiney.

Man I just get so frustrated. I'm really interested in usability. Always have been, stuff like this just drives me into a state of hyper agitation.

Sorry, I appreciate the help really.

One of the problems is that I thought I was running KDE and I'm actually running Gnome. There is no way for a newbie to know that with the distro that I've installed. So I've been telling people I am running KDE.

Now I know how to switch. I'm not sure but maybe I'll like KDE more but for now Gnome.

cordedpoodle 09-10-2003 08:31 PM

Mozilla 1.2.1 was installed by RedHat. I downloaded 1.4 and installed it but allowed it to install in the default directory. I've since found it sort of.

Thanks for the advice about the console/Konsole/Terminal thing. Very confusing for a newbie. I have use command lines a little but hate it, to tell the truth. I'd venture to say that 99% of people hate command lines too.

I did find Mozilla but when I click on it it doesn't launch, it asks me if I want to run the script that launches it. That's very frustrating to me. I'm used to Macs or Windows.

My friend helped me replace the Mozilla icon in my toolbar but I think the start menu still has the old one. I'm now trying to figure out how to use the Add/Delete program. It's not clear how to use it.

synaptical 09-10-2003 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cordedpoodle
Mozilla 1.2.1 was installed by RedHat. I downloaded 1.4 and installed it but allowed it to install in the default directory. I've since found it sort of.

Thanks for the advice about the console/Konsole/Terminal thing. Very confusing for a newbie. I have use command lines a little but hate it, to tell the truth. I'd venture to say that 99% of people hate command lines too.

My friend helped me replace the Mozilla icon in my toolbar but I think the start menu still has the old one. I'm now trying to figure out how to use the Add/Delete program. It's not clear how to use it.

just delete the Mozilla 1.2.1 directory, and any binary that says 1.2.1 (if any do). that will get rid of the old program (you'll probably have to be root for that).

as for your start menu, again, just right click on the icon and choose Remove This Item, similar to what you would do in windows. to add the new icon, go to Desktop Preferences -> Advanced -> Menu Editor, click on the icon for the group you want the new icon to go into (e.g., Internet), then create the new "shortcut" by right-clicking in the empty space and choosing New Launcher. the dialog that opens should be self-explanatory.

as for the command line, you'll learn to love it. :D when i go into windows now, it's like ... ugh ... where's the command line?! you wonder how you got anything done before without it.

Electro 09-10-2003 08:56 PM

Its not the OS. Its the user.

Any OS that you use keep an eye where you install programs.

locate can only be used if you run the database program every 8 days to refresh it.

You can use find by typing cd / && find -xdev -iname mozilla*

I hate using GUI but I liked using command prompt.

cordedpoodle 09-10-2003 10:15 PM

thanks for the help, all you guys.

Have to disagree with you though Electro. Users make mistakes because coders don't understand usabilty rules. A well designed interface is self explanitory. There are plenty of books out there on usability, and it's not personal preferences. There have been lots of scientific studies that indicate a lot of intesting thing about usability.

Otherwise we'd all be using command lines and there would be no GUIs.

That's the problem Linux has. Otherwise everyone would be using it instead of Windows or Macs. Most people won't bother with command lines. Many people that I know won't even touch a computer because of the negative attitudes of techies and the hassles. They just think they will have better lives without computers. I sometimes think so too.

I would suggest you might want ot read "Designing Visual Interfaces" by Kevin Mullet

I can also tell you from personal experience. I worked for a company that had a dynamite idea, presold, with the best coders and technology and gobs of start up money. Everyone had the latest equipment, 21" monitors and Herman Miller chairs. Despite my warnings they neglected to do a one day usabilty test. lthe CEO and CTO told me they'd fix the interface if they had to after they got feedback from the presold customers. They spent three years developing the product. They released V.1 and none of the clients could use it. The mistake in the interface wasn't that big but their competition had a better interface although a vastly inferior product. Within a month after they released the product they were toast. All their clients and investors bailed. We are talking about millions or even hundreds of millions lost because they didn't user test their interface. It would have taken them one day with paper drawings.

Tripping over dollars to pick up nickles.

It is my sincere hope that the open source community gets it together. I would love to help. The only thing that's holding it back is usabilty.

Baran 09-11-2003 02:40 AM

Did you try pressing
ALT+F2
to call an application, there type

mozilla

if you installed Mozilla correctly it should work.

If it doesn't I would suggest you to do this: (if you have installed that from RPMs)

rpm -qa|less (as root)

to see which pakages installed on your system. Find there the package related with Mozilla, the old one and also the new one,

uninstall each of them by

rpm -e <package name>

then intall your new mozilla package by

rpm -ivh <package name>

there you go !

try ALT+F2 to call mozilla... it should work.
Well it worked on my system at least

Good luck

codec 09-11-2003 06:07 AM

if you use RH9, then Mozilla 1.2.1 is in /usr/bin/mozilla and new mozilla 1.4 is likely to be installed in /usr/local/mozilla

Just make a shortcut in menu or launch bar and it would be ok

harrygraham 09-11-2003 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by cordedpoodle
[
I can also tell you from personal experience. I worked for a company that had a dynamite idea, presold, with the best coders and technology and gobs of start up money. Everyone had the latest equipment, 21" monitors and Herman Miller chairs. Despite my warnings they neglected to do a one day usabilty test. lthe CEO and CTO told me they'd fix the interface if they had to after they got feedback from the presold customers. They spent three years developing the product. They released V.1 and none of the clients could use it. The mistake in the interface wasn't that big but their competition had a better interface although a vastly inferior product. Within a month after they released the product they were toast. All their clients and investors bailed. We are talking about millions or even hundreds of millions lost because they didn't user test their interface. It would have taken them one day with paper drawings.

Tripping over dollars to pick up nickles.

It is my sincere hope that the open source community gets it together. I would love to help. The only thing that's holding it back is usability. [/B]
That's so sad, but typical of the way things are done these days. I believe your experience with this high-tech company is universally applicable. It's called the KISS principle. (Keep it Simple, Stupid) and it works in marketing like nothing else. So many good products die for want of better ergonomics and marketability. That's where Microsoft puts all its emphasis. But I don't think Linux is affected by this.

The GUI's are very important for the technically inept like myself. But Linux development is so rapid that if everything had to be perfectly gooified before being considered useable, development would be ham stringed. Most of the people who use Linux are techies so are quite comfortable with the command line. But I do agree that if Linux ever goes to the masses this weakness will have to be addressed.

Right now Linux doesn't have to worry about the bottom line. It therefore doesn't need to conform to sound business principles either - only good coding. That's what makes it a very revolutionary OS.

synaptical 09-11-2003 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by cordedpoodle
It is my sincere hope that the open source community gets it together. I would love to help. The only thing that's holding it back is usabilty.
speaking of just the GUI, it seems to me that KDE and GNOME are just as usable -- if not more usable -- than any version of windows ever was.

when we start speaking of the OS "underneath" the GUI, it seems to me as even a novice user that linux is infinitely more usable than windows.

can you recompile your kernel in windows? no, you can't. so that's not a very usable kernel, is it? can you open new user sessions simultaneously in windows like you can in linux with Alt+Fx? no. so that's not nearly as usable, is it? can you read Mac OS, BSD, Unix, and almost any other type of partition with windows? no. so that's not very usable, is it? can you install multiple programs, patches, and other changes without rebooting in windows? no, usually you have to reboot. so that's not very usable, is it? can you get windows for free (legally?) no, you can't get it for free. so that's not very usable, is it?

the list could go on and on, but what really needs to be revised are current ideas of usability (many funded by microsoft donations to individuals and universities that do usability "research") that say, "the OS should do everything for the user transparently, without the user ever learning anything about the OS." that's about as unrealistic as expecting people to be able to fly planes without any training, by just getting in the cockpit and going. the day we see that is the day we see a lot of crashed airplanes (edit: oops, ref. to 9-11 tragedy unintentional :o ).

Genesee 09-11-2003 12:29 PM

with flexibility and power comes complexity and a greater need for knowledge. there's no getting around that.

however, people also confuse "foreign" with "complex" -- it is no more complex to type a command at a prompt than it is to place a cursor over a bitmap and click twice, nor to store files in directories by category instead of in a single registry file. I would argue it is less complex, actually.

but I agree that user interaction is crucial, and there has been a lot of activity in that area. and one of the greatest features of open source is that the source to everything is free and available - gnome, kde, etc. were all created by people that recognized the things you mentioned, and you are able to do the same thing.

:cool:

harrygraham 09-11-2003 03:53 PM

reality check
 
Microsoft for all its weaknesses, does make software with more gradual learning curves. Their programs are a marvel in user-friendliness. It's too bad that the heart of the OS is so flabby.

The problem is that once you get used to Linux, you forget the pain and difficulties you went through to learn it. You forget the long nights racking your brain to figure something out. Some people don't like putting themselves through all that just to have a superior OS. I don't blame them.

I set up a computer for an older gentleman last week with Windows 98. If I had set it up with the most user friendly Linux OS - Mandrake, he would have been on the phone to me every hour to explain this or that. I'd be giving him lessons for six months before he'd catch on. With Windows he can function independently with almost no help. Of course this is entirely different from the question of quality. Linux is better quality in many ways. But I think Microsoft deserves some kudos for making a very accessible product.

cordedpoodle 09-11-2003 05:24 PM

Genesee,

I think you are forgettin "intuitive". Apples OS has been the most intuitive. It has nothing to do with foreign or complex. Command lines are hardly intuitive. You must memorize commands. Once you learn how to use a dialog box you will probably know how to use it the next time.

As I've suggested if Linux coders spent a week or two out of their lives reading about usability you'd understand. For instance knowing how to use a grid makes all the difference in a dialog box. It's really astounding how much easier a well gridded dialog box makes even against a poorly designed dialog box with the same widgets.

Or can anyone here tell me the various advantages of shape vs. color in icons? I mean scientifically? I doubt it. But there are scientific studies made that prove color is best for some widgets whereas shape is better for others.

And it's not the apps. One would expect new apps to have lesser quality GUI or no GUI at all. It's the System, specifically the file system or the representation of the file system That really sucks and should have been fixed long ago. I mean the File Finder app is just about useless to me.

Rant, Rave... don't get me going...

Anyway I'm in it now so...

synaptical 09-11-2003 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cordedpoodle
I think you are forgettin "intuitive". Apples OS has been the most intuitive.
dragging a floppy icon to the trash to eject it is intuitive? :confused: sounds more like what you learned and are used to to me.

harrygraham 09-12-2003 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by cordedpoodle


And it's not the apps. One would expect new apps to have lesser quality GUI or no GUI at all. It's the System, specifically the file system or the representation of the file system That really sucks and should have been fixed long ago. I mean the File Finder app is just about useless to me.

Rant, Rave... don't get me going...

Anyway I'm in it now so...

If the file system is really the problem, then why haven't they fixed it in Unix? After all, Linux is really a poor man's Unix. The file systems are almost identical.

Your idea of replacing the file system as being something akin to a "fix" has floored me. You obviously do not comprehend what you ask.. At least I can imagine how much work is involved. It would probably require tossing Linux - including the 4000 Unix-like programs that go with it - and starting over from scratch. All this so you won't have to learn a slightly antiquated file system? Methinks you ask too much.

Of course, eventually this might be the direction GNU will go. Unix was first made when ... in the 1960's? It may already be in the works, who knows?

cordedpoodle 09-12-2003 10:38 AM

I rant about the Mac OS too. Don't like the trash, in the dock. Don't like the Dock.

But the file system in Mac OS9 is the easiest, OSX (unix as you know) is the next easiest, Windows next, followed by Linux.

Maybe we are talking apple and oranges here. Most here use Linux for servers I'm guessing I'm talking about using it as a desktop OS.

Hey it is what it is. I think we all here want Linux to succeed on the desktop. The biggest impediment to that now IMHO is the filing system.

On the plus side the installation was relatively easy. I was pleasantly surprised. The main problem I had was putting the installer files onto CDs. RedHat neglected to state Step One. Every thing else was pretty easy. What they don't tell you is that the files are virtual disks. I burned my first cd with the virtual disk inside another virtual disk. Simple fix, all they need is to tell the user that the file is a mountable virtual disk. At least from my view as primarily a Mac OS user.

The free apps are great. Open Office is great. Gimp is pretty good. Evolution Email looks fine.

bigredmed 09-12-2003 10:54 AM

As a rank newbie, I would have to agree.

The Open Source community could also help itself by getting people who tend to be early adopters to read the instructions and try to use the product, then help to clarify the instruction set so that future users with less enthusiasm will be willing to use it.

I can get the GUI to work in SuSe 8.2, but can't get basic questions answered because SuSe won't support you and this board is too over run with other requests for help to get to all of them.

Again, I would be happy to participate in a Newbie "gamma test" of any OS software. I would bet that there are a lot of people out there who would be willing to put our skills and interest to work to support this movement in this manner.

MrMoke 09-12-2003 11:08 AM

I agree that installing rpm packages can be frustrating

Open a Terminal window as root

keyin:#man rpm
This gives you the basics of the command, :q will exit

if the package is not yet installed:

keyin:# rpm -q -p --dump your-package-name.rpm
where your-package-name is replaced with the appropriate name, the -p option tells rpm that the package is currently uninstalled

You should see a list of where everything will be placed

synaptical 09-12-2003 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by cordedpoodle
Hey it is what it is. I think we all here want Linux to succeed on the desktop. The biggest impediment to that now IMHO is the filing system.
first you say the "biggest impediment" is the GUI interface, now you say it's the file system. :confused: i'm sorry, but i'm having trouble taking your rant seriously. it seems like you just want to complain. :p

of course another beauty of free/open software is that if a person doesn't like something, they are also 100% free to change it. :D if they don't know how to program and don't want to learn how, then they're stuck with what is available, right? :p either way, ranting about it on the LQ board doesn't seem very productive.

:twocents:

ferretmanus 09-12-2003 01:32 PM

also as a newbee ive felt like that a whole bunch. i am also an uber newbee. but i am trying something else where i really dont need the interface, creating a linux webserver and proxy server for my house, which is running windows. windows is great for gaming and chat ect, and also for the fact i have lan partys with people who dont really know what the hell is going on with linux. this is very confusing to me, especially getting to know it all. i rant and rave and go crazy and if it wasnt for this board and my gf i would be insane. but i do feel that there needs to be better explanation, ex: the kiss method of teaching, for us newbees. i dont mind learning all the linux tags, because ive had to learn french and html 4.0, javascript, ect... so its getting easier to get it all. i found out that the linux filesystem is very similar to a webpage filesystem. i also agree to what has been posted about windows, they are great with the kiss interface. i have set up my family and grandparents with a computer, and they are still having bits of trouble. but if i got into the whole linux thing on their laptop, omg it would so be trouble. but when i hear our ranting and raving friend who is making this whole post string sound like a bad sitcom, i just have to say go and j/o or something, releive the stress, look up a newbee guide, i found one but ill get back to you on the adress, and do it right. there are thousands of people to help and all you need is patience. its taken me over a year to get good at html and over 2 to get good at french. its all just a language you need to learn the structure of! so, a tout a lhuere!

jhansman 09-12-2003 04:12 PM

Quote:

It is my sincere hope that the open source community gets it together. I would love to help. The only thing that's holding it back is usabilty.
As a user of Linux for a whole month now, I understand the above sentiment. It is my sense that many Linux users like the fact that it is harder to use than Windows or the Mac, and this is precisely why they chose it as their OS. I come from a time when DOS 3.3 was the dominant OS and as Windows 2.0 was making a dent, hardcore DOS users detested its usability, which, admittedly was poor at the time. I like Linux not because I hate Microsoft or Windows, but simply because I'm bored now and Linux provides me with an new learning computer challenge, something I haven't had for a long time.

The irony here is if RH or any of the other distros become so easy to use that they also become indistinguishable from Windows or Macintosh, the very thing that sets it apart will be lost. I fully agree that for the novice, Linux has far too many obscure and arcane aspects. Still, that has to be part of its appeal.

then 09-12-2003 04:50 PM

Hi

I'm too am I a tux newbie like most others in this forum.

One thing that I find most often is that people post without bothering to read the documentation / manuals. There must be a million websites dedicated to linux software / documentation with answer to about 90% of questions. Just a little bit of patience and luck on google/linux :)

If you need to know something, read up lots of stuff about it. If you still don't understand it, by all means seek help by posting at forums :)

As far as Linux GUIs go, I moved to GNOME from Win'98 with *no hassles*. I admit it took me one month on TLDP and lurking at forums before I installed. Had to unlearn some Windows jargon and learn some CLI stuff. Not that I can write shell scripts that could lauch satellites, but I get by comfortably. When I don't, there's always google and TLDP.

I had no "GUI" hassles as the thread starter had :)...maybe I'm lucky. Afterall I got the whole OS for free and it works as expected...thats enough for me!!

BTW, I'm not a poweruser, just an ordinary desktop user with a little bit of dabbling in AMP.

Just my 2cents

regards
theN

cordedpoodle 09-16-2003 02:53 AM

synaptical,

What I meant is that the way the way directories are displayed is confusing. Expecially the find file app. For one thing it doesn't search for folders (directories). Only apps.

I'm not a coder. Oh, I've done it but coding is not my thing. I understand visual media. And I understand usability.

Hey I appreciate Linux. It's some kind of miracle. Really. There is room for discussion of usability.

And those who dig command lines can do it even if there is an interface. I'm not suggesting the terminal is eliminated. Heck why bother with C+? Just go right to the nitty gritty and write Assembly for those who need a challenge.

I really see Linux as just about ready for the desktop for everyone. If I was a bit more facil with it I'd dump WindowME on my Mom's computer and put Linux on there.

I see Linux gaining market share until it threatens Windows. It is going to really pick up steam in 2nd and 3rd world countries until there are more Linux boxes than Windows boxes. It's going to take over hand helds. Apps are going to be ported. It's got me pretty excited.

I'll pick up the filing system eventually, but for now Mom's gonna stay on WindowsME.

cordedpoodle 09-16-2003 02:54 AM

Oops I meant only files instead of only apps.

ottbr 09-16-2003 10:48 AM

Stop wasting your time, try Gentoo, it makes life easier. It just requires massive amounts of time and bandwidth!

SiriusAB 09-17-2003 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by then
If you need to know something, read up lots of stuff about it. If you still don't understand it, by all means seek help by posting at forums :)
Yeah, read up. When you do, and you solve your problem, it's an incredibly rewarding experience. For example, it's taken me a while to *get* compiling, but the learning process suggests myriad customization opportunities. This OS can be tweaked exactly the way you like it.

Moreover, I've learned a lot more about Windows, its guts and security since I got involved with Linux.

I still have plenty of problems and plenty to learn, but it's ALL good.

Azmeen 09-17-2003 01:45 AM

Anyway, for those who mentioned the user-friendlessness of certain Linux apps... please voice your opinions to the creators of the apps... and yeah, KDE and Gnome are apps too, and both have their respective dev teams.

Another thing, this thread has gone way offtopic from its original intentions :)

harrygraham 09-17-2003 07:59 AM

I represent that!
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Azmeen
Anyway, for those who mentioned the user-friendlessness of certain Linux apps... please voice your opinions to the creators of the apps... and yeah, KDE and Gnome are apps too, and both have their respective dev teams.

Another thing, this thread has gone way offtopic from its original intentions :)

Well said, future guru. IMHO the whole forum is one giant digression. But your post has reminded me of the neccessity of being constructive, so here is my attempt.

If you want to use the latest version of Mozilla, forget the RPM's. It is easier both to install and delete versions of Mozilla using their excellent gzipped files. I really think the performance is better too.

- First, export all your bookmarks
- Next, remove the Mozilla RPM using your gnorpm program.
- Next, download the latest version of Mozilla. Mozilla Firebird is pretty good too, if you are looking for a leaner, meaner and faster browser.
- Next unpack and untar the gzipped file. I know you can do it in one step, but this works too:

gunzip Mozilla-whatever.gz
tar xvf Mozilla-whatever.tar

Maybe now would be a good idea to switch to root user in console mode.

switch to the Mozilla-whatever directory and follow the instructions in the readme file.

The program automatically installs to /usr/local/mozilla. The bonus is that if you want to upgrade in future, then just delete the directory. You may have to delete the hidden /home/user/.mozilla file before running the new program. If you can't find it, then you will have to change the settings in Konqueror to show all the hidden files.

If you want a desktop shortcut, just right-click on the KDE screen and select 'create new link to application.' Browse to /usr/local/mozilla and select the mozilla with the gear icon. You can select an icon for the desktop by clicking on the icon under 'General'.

This is the way I use Mozilla and have been quite happy with it.






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