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Old 05-19-2008, 07:50 PM   #46
masonm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by czarr
i couldn't care less about what distro anyone else is using. Use what suits YOUR needs and dont' become a fanboy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jiml8 View Post
If you want to use a roll-your-own distro such as slackware, then by all means do. But don't keep telling people that the only and best way is to become a computer guru before you try to just use a computer. That is silly. It is also unrealistic. It is elitist and it is arrogant.
I agree with both of these 100%

Using any OS requires a certain amount of learning, but by no means does one need to memorize every man page just to use it.
 
Old 05-19-2008, 10:58 PM   #47
Labman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jiml8 View Post
....
And I fully believe that the most sensible approach, in most cases for most users most of the time, is to have a fully integrated and completely working system that spares them the need to learn the dirty details just to get the job done.

I myself use the full-up effort-free distros, because I have work to do. This is not to say that I cannot work on the system at any level that I find necessary; I can. This is to say that I don't want to, unless that is the job.

If you want to use a roll-your-own distro such as slackware, then by all means do. But don't keep telling people that the only and best way is to become a computer guru before you try to just use a computer. That is silly. It is also unrealistic. It is elitist and it is arrogant.

And it just ain't a-gonna happen; everyone is trying to make these things simple enough that a novice can use them. Because the fact is that these things are very very useful, and most people are not experts and do not want to be.
Bill would be in big trouble if more of those that really know Linux had this much sense. The Vista fiasco has opened a window of opportunity for other operating systems. There is no way every Linux distro will ever have the help system in my Mac 7.6.1 where clicking on the question mark brought up a window where the next spot you need to click was circled in red. By the way, in the next room, I still have a Power Mac powered up and ready to quickly do simple tasks.

I am like the OP, but started Linux 5 years later. When I click on Help from a GUI, I seldom get anything useful. Mostly it explains the obvious use of menu items. Nowhere is there anything about where you find what isn't there. A recent example I haven't found time to pursue further. (I just spent 4 hours at the ball field keeping score for the youth baseball.) I noticed the clock on my computer was fast. On my old Mandrake system, I could select NTP or something and the computer would syncronize its time to some sites time. I would think my new Debian system (Stable downloaded 31 March 08) had the same option, but no sign of it in the control system. Where do I go to find out how to turn it on?

Perhaps Linux needs a major fork, a distribution that may lack the latest nifty doodads, but with Apple like just works and documentation for those wanting to use a computer, and the traditional freedom for others.
 
Old 05-19-2008, 11:18 PM   #48
onebuck
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Hi,

To the OP. You could look at 'Linux Documentation Project' to start with. Then google the problem with finite search keys.

For trouble shooting computer problems there are several methodologies to pick from. I like the 'Top down' method but sometimes you must look at the problem from the 'bottom up'. Really good trouble shooting requires you to be able to dissect a problem properly with definition. Therefore you must understand the topic holistically with an intrinsic knowledge of the same topic.

That's why we have 'System Engineers', 'Network Engineers' and technical support staff. Each has a specialty that relies on the other. Let us leave out the 'IT' at this point. They do play a part but most times from afar.

A good diagnostician will be able to define what the problem is and how you will need to proceed to correct the problem. The same person will need to have all information available to compile the problem so as to formulate a solution. That same person may break the system but will avail themselves a means to back out of the generated mistake. That recovery will generally show another possible path to the solution.

You will never have too much information to diagnose a problem. You just need to know what to weed out to get the answer.

Experience does help! But a good working crystal ball doesn't hurt either.
 
Old 05-19-2008, 11:51 PM   #49
farslayer
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Flash Back to the original question for just a moment.....


Books on Linux Troubleshooting...

Linux Troubleshooting for Systems Administrators and Power Users

Self-Service Linux: Determining Problems and Finding Solutions


I don't (surprisingly enough) own either of these books so I couldn't tell you if they cover what you want or not.
I recommend using the Google troubleshooting method as well, but just wanted to point out that Yes, indeed Linux troubleshooting books do exist..

The problem with Books is,
--------------------------------
1. They get out of date quickly. Linux released happen pretty rapidly,
2. They are limited in scope and may not cover the issue you are having.
3. They can be non-specific.. Such as the book I posted the link to. What distro of Linux does it cover ? who knows !!
4. A comprehensive book on troubleshooting GNU/Linux would be HUGE !!
5. Most Linux books don't sell a lot of copies - the Linux books in the local stores are over 5 years old.. (Why would they bother getting the new ones in now since the old ones never sold ? ) (O'reilly books are probably an exception to this.. )


The [Redhat / Ubuntu / Debian / insert distro of choice] Bible books focus on specific distros, but again I don't know how much they get into troubleshooting.



OK as you were... Carry on.

Last edited by farslayer; 05-19-2008 at 11:54 PM.
 
Old 05-20-2008, 05:53 AM   #50
H_TeXMeX_H
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jiml8 View Post
How old are you?
25, but I bet you think I'm 6-8, right ? or maybe 12-13 ? Some of those ages where you can accuse me of being either an ignorant child or a teen with raging hormones. I know what you're thinking, don't worry.

Quote:
Some of my stuff is flying and fighting in the middle east right now, and is flying on electronic intelligence gathering missions around the world.
You must be real proud of that. One day I too want to program machines to kill, I want to make terminators, it'll be so much fun, and I'll be damn proud of myself. To make the first terminator, they'll chant my name for eons to come. Judgment day will come my friend, and what a great day it will be, the best day.

Quote:
I do kernel level programming in Linux.
Good for you, but what does this have to do with the argument ?

Quote:
You want to talk about getting down and dirty with systems? I will bet you a bunch that I have forgotten more than you have ever known.
about computers, probably. Was it important info ? It'd be sad to forget important information, almost sinful.

Quote:
And I fully believe that the most sensible approach, in most cases for most users most of the time, is to have a fully integrated and completely working system that spares them the need to learn the dirty details just to get the job done.

...

If you want to use a roll-your-own distro such as slackware, then by all means do. But don't keep telling people that the only and best way is to become a computer guru before you try to just use a computer. That is silly. It is also unrealistic. It is elitist and it is arrogant.
I agree, all I'm saying is in response to the OP, unlike what you're saying. If you want to learn Linux, move to more advanced distros that will teach you more. Is that bad advice ? I just don't get it. Maybe I'm too stupid and/or ignorant.

Also, I recommend against making more comments that will add to the already smoldering flame war. I know I probably added some to it, so really, I'll just try to avoid posting in the thread again. All I need to say is said.

Last edited by H_TeXMeX_H; 05-20-2008 at 05:55 AM.
 
Old 05-20-2008, 10:14 AM   #51
trashbird1240
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Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by ciden View Post
Most people have jobs and kids and stuff, and dont care or dont need or even shouldn't dabble with software and source.
I just wanted to add that I laughed at this, since I have two kids, and a full-time job that although computer-intensive, does not require me to be. I choose that. It's all a matter of choice. I don't have to "dabble with software and source" but I choose to because it's a much more powerful way of using a computer.

Joel
 
Old 05-20-2008, 10:37 AM   #52
trashbird1240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jiml8 View Post
Yes, but you have to configure all of that. It doesn't come done for you.
Actually no, you don't. All the system administration tools you need are in the default Slackware install. Read what I wrote! I know what "out-of-the-box" means. Have you ever used Slackware?

Quote:
But this does not mean and should not mean that you have to be an expert in order to do basic things.
This is where I disagree: there is much more choice in saying "I'm willing to learn," than in saying "I don't need to learn." Whenever someone in my office (full of Macintoshes) comes up and asks me how to do something, I tell them how to do it, and their response is "Oh, well in that case I don't want to do it." It doesn't matter if it's easy, or hard, or whatever the case. Whenever it involves learning, people run the other direction. People are willing to give up the capability that comes with actually learning to use a computer well (that is, getting a computer to do what you want it to do) because it involves work. Making a computer "user-friendly" doesn't change any of that.

Quote:
and it is those distros - which "just work" when you install them - that will bring Linux to the masses and will ultimately make substantial inroads against the M$ monopoly.
Back on the subject of Linux distributions: I installed Slackware 12.1 last weekend and it required NO configuration.

Quote:
Historically, computers have been tools for experts.
Given the attitudes of most people toward learning, I'm not sure it's such a bad idea for it to stay that way. Why do you think it should be different?

Quote:
Where Linux falls short today is that it is not yet to the point - not quite - where it "just works".
Bull. If i put the PCLinuxOS LiveCD in my computer, and reboot it, it just works.

Quote:
Good for you. Seriously. But do you really think that only people who are willing to put in that kind of effort should use Linux? Or should use computers? That is an unrealistic expectation.
As long as people are willing to go to great lengths to avoid learning, then they don't deserve it. I'm not kidding. That's not unrealistic; it's a fact of life. Getting anywhere in life requires work. People who are unwilling to to work now have more opportunities to use electronics than others. Some see that as a "blessing" and "revolutionary" and I see it as a cause for credit crisis and inflation. Consumers have been fooled into buying stuff that they don't need, does them no good and that they don't know how to use.

Maybe when I'm as old as you, and I can say "I remember when people actually used a mouse!" I'll have a different opinion. For right now, I'm pissed.

Joel
 
Old 05-20-2008, 10:41 AM   #53
trashbird1240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jiml8 View Post
My objection is and has been the idea that learning Linux at a deep level should be a prerequisite for using it. I emphatically disagree; it should be possible for anyone to sit down in front of a Linux machine and quickly be able to use it to at least the same level they use Windows or OS-X.
I've seen tons of people do that. Okay, maybe around half a ton, but you get my meaning. Linux is not hard to use!

My point is that to get a lot out of it, it's better to have the idea that you're willing to learn. To say "I'm not going to learn and I still want to do a lot with this software" is totally unreasonable. If you don't want to learn, then you don't get to do any more than what you already know --- it's a truism. That's true of any system or body of knowledge (including Windows, OS X, DOS, Unix, VMS, baking a cake...).

Joel
 
Old 05-20-2008, 11:20 AM   #54
vadkutya
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Quote:
This is where I disagree: there is much more choice in saying "I'm willing to learn," than in saying "I don't need to learn." Whenever someone in my office (full of Macintoshes) comes up and asks me how to do something, I tell them how to do it, and their response is "Oh, well in that case I don't want to do it." It doesn't matter if it's easy, or hard, or whatever the case. Whenever it involves learning, people run the other direction. People are willing to give up the capability that comes with actually learning to use a computer well (that is, getting a computer to do what you want it to do) because it involves work. Making a computer "user-friendly" doesn't change any of that.
well said.

some might say that they just want to use computers as they use a knife. they actually do not need to understand what the knife is made of about it's molecular structure and so on. yet, you still need to know how to use a knife. for example that you don't try to cut with the blunt edge. that you are able to sharpen your knife whenever it gets blunt. you should know how to hold a knife, even how to cut. it's not hard to learn but you have to.

likewise you do not necessarily need to know how a computer works on quantum level but how to use it. that people think windows is selfevident and can be used without knowledge about computers is simply bullsh*t. todays generation is grown up with computers, mostly with windows so they are used to it from the very beginning. windows is not better designed, it's far away from that. actually it's a buggy tool but everybody knows how to handle it. why making it better? MS does know that people do not like to learn, that they are lazy and mostly stupid. that's why they are successful. so they keep their tool buggy. and so everybody thinks it works out of the box.

people complaining about linux being not user friendly as windows are a pity. linux is not windows. and it's not supposed to pamper you nicely. if you want to stay ignorant stick with windows. if you want to be ignorant and use linux it will do you no good. it all boils down to this:

you get the OS you deserve! the choice is yours...choose wisely
vadkutya
 
Old 05-20-2008, 11:21 AM   #55
ciden
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trashbird1240 View Post
I just wanted to add that I laughed at this, since I have two kids, and a full-time job that although computer-intensive, does not require me to be. I choose that. It's all a matter of choice. I don't have to "dabble with software and source" but I choose to because it's a much more powerful way of using a computer.

Joel
Same for me, except the wife and kids. I switched to linux and want to learn how to tame my computer instead of it enslaving me through the evil WinOS.

Most people just dont respect the fact that their PC is one of the most expensive gadgets in their homes, and probably the most underutilized.
 
Old 05-20-2008, 11:29 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ciden View Post
Most people just dont respect the fact that their PC is one of the most expensive gadgets in their homes, and probably the most underutilized.
absolutely right. for most of them a computer is a digital typewriter with 4GB RAM and Word still runs f*cking slowly...or maybe 4GHz is too slow to process a letter.

vadkutya
 
Old 05-20-2008, 12:03 PM   #57
STARHARVEST
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H_TeXMeX_H View Post
One day I too want to program machines to kill, I want to make terminators, it'll be so much fun, and I'll be damn proud of myself. To make the first terminator, they'll chant my name for eons to come. Judgment day will come my friend, and what a great day it will be, the best day.
Let's install slack on T1000 ?=)
 
Old 05-20-2008, 01:06 PM   #58
Labman
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Huuuuuum!, 57 posts and counting. Has anybody carefully read them all? I think this thread involves a fundamental question, should the use of Linux be limited or open to all? Frankly some of the posts in this and other threads leave me wondering if the mods need to make greater efforts to keep Microsoft employees from posting things to discourage the use of Linux. As far as the hobbyists setting the standards beyond reason, it is the same in any other topic, look at say dogs, cars, gardening, etc.

Even if somebody could and did write the documentation the OP asked about, it would get lost in all the other stuff. I have followed a number of suggested links, and most of them are about how to run, while I am trying to learn to walk. Not everybody will be running the Boston marathon.

I am sure many here would be upset if there was clear documentation allowing the great unwashed masses to use Linux. You want to keep it as your private plaything, and only share it with those you can force to become like you.

Another point. Why should Linux have clear, easy instructions when so little else does? I remember the CD that came with the Epson printer I once made the mistake of buying. It was a multimedia presentation complete with music I couldn't stand. I was interested in occasionally printing some text. The Epson instructions wanted me to jump into color images. Nowhere was there a warning that Epson printers are unsuitable for occasional use because the print head will clog up if allowed to set for a couple of weeks, and it is cheaper to buy a new printer than the print head.
 
Old 05-20-2008, 01:42 PM   #59
trashbird1240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Labman View Post
Huuuuuum!, 57 posts and counting. Has anybody carefully read them all? I think this thread involves a fundamental question, should the use of Linux be limited or open to all?
I'm not advocating that anybody close anything; I'm advocating to people opening their minds. If you choose to learn how to do something, then your skills will advance. The same thing goes with Win$uck. I've known many people who were Window$ power users. I just never got to that point, because I felt like I was getting ripped off the whole time, and I wasn't interested in feeling more ripped off.

Quote:
Another point. Why should Linux have clear, easy instructions when so little else does?
I like your point about your printer, but here's the thing: Linux distributions do have clear instructions. When I'm installing Slackware, or any other distro, it says "To do X, choose X," and then it describes what it's doing. Sure, problems come up, sometimes unanticipated, but I've never felt helpless with free and open source software the way I felt helpless with proprietary software. The solution with proprietary software was always "Give us some money, and we'll get back to you when we feel like it."

Joel
 
Old 05-20-2008, 01:52 PM   #60
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I have a feeling this thread is derailing fast.
 
  


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