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Old 05-09-2003, 08:33 AM   #16
Mega Man X
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Pros: Stable (not faster then WinXP, it boots MUCH faster then KDE does to open and Win Xp and 2000 are very stable too, let's not lie ), cheaper (if you have broadband it's free), open source (if you have need for it, most does not ), X Windows are fully customizables (Win is not).

Cons: Forget about games. Unfortunately very few games were oficially released for Linux and WineX simply is a lie to take our money, it does NOT work (only notepad.exe). Lacks supports for some hardwares (my scanner, my joypad are totally useless). There's no standard for Linux installation programs (specially from source, where it can be ./configure, or ./configure --gui and so on ) so be prepared to read thousands of pages to install LICQ .
Just NOT easy for certain peoples. Many peoples need a computer to only surf the internet or read e-mails. They know nothing about security or the diference between a file and a folder. And they don't need to either. But to configure a printer on Linux sometimes, seems a job for a computer engineer....

At the end, most of us use dual boot with another OS.... Unfortunately... it's a long way to Linux to go, specially for those users, as I said, that only use to see e-mail..... and the installation is far old. Linux is around for like what, 12-13 years and with exceptions of the Win Managers, was not much of improvment on it's heart.

Dont take me mad, I love Linux, but there're things which does not need to be the way they are. A computer, for most users, is an enterteinment box, to watch movies, play games, talk with friends (chat), and it's a long way of compiling and making installs till you reach this "enterteinment" level with linux...
 
Old 05-09-2003, 09:04 AM   #17
2damncommon
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Quote:
There's no standard for Linux installation programs (specially from source, where it can be ./configure, or ./configure --gui and so on )
The standard for installing from source is to start with the readme file and continue with others as needed. That is why those files are provided.
To say there is no standard is wrong.
For that matter, it is the standard to begin every software install by reading the documentation. Windows or Linux or anything else. That it is often made easier for us is no reason to think this step should never be necessary.
 
Old 05-09-2003, 11:30 AM   #18
Mega Man X
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Quote:
Originally posted by 2damncommon
The standard for installing from source is to start with the readme file and continue with others as needed. That is why those files are provided.
To say there is no standard is wrong.
For that matter, it is the standard to begin every software install by reading the documentation. Windows or Linux or anything else. That it is often made easier for us is no reason to think this step should never be necessary.
Yeah, I know we should need to read the read me files, but it's not practical. Think like an ordinary man's life:

6h30 wakes up, eat breakfast and go work. He starts at 8h30 and stops at 17h00. 18h00 he is home and wants to sit in front his computer and enjoy a movie or a game to relax, but no, he will read 30 pages about read me. Installation, lib necessaries, compiling, he needs to know if he has this or that kernel, that or the other gcc lib. Then he finds out he has gcc2.9 but it's not good to the program he's trying to install. He has to surf the net, download gcc 3.0 and compile it. Some Linux programs takes hours to compile depending how big it is.

Cool, everything up and running. This poor guy who worked all day, now will finally install his application. Happily, he runs ./configure again and.... bam,

Error 1: You don't have X installed or something like that".

He them takes his CD's from his distro and install the packages...17 packages. Some in the CD 1, then Linux ask for the CD 2, then the CD3. All packages installed successfully. Then this poor guy runs again ./configure and get it to work.

Time is 0h00 and he has to sleep. I'm not saying Linux is bad, but it should have some standards during the installation. The only thing we are asked about in a windows application, in the case of games, is ONLY directX, which by the way, is always included in the CD's. But Linux, no, we need to upgrade gcc, gc, x11, mesa, xv, make, patch and so on....

Linux is good, but not practical....
 
Old 05-09-2003, 11:45 AM   #19
Mega Man X
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Some practical exemples:

Installing ICQ on Windows. Download and run exe. It will stay into your task bar automaticly.

Installing Licq on Linux. download, gunzip, tar, ./configure (probaly you will get erros, then fixes the missing files, install packages and classic Linux things) Make (takes usually a long time), make install (a little time). Done. It will not appear into gnomes menu or kde, or not even on the task bar of any window manages, do you know why? Because there's no standard between those applications. All linux applications and managers are made my diferent peoples, at different times and places. So you have to run it from terminal or create a shortcut yourself. Run terminal, type licq.
Now you are running . licq also does not download directly from ICQ's server your contact list, so or you import it from a backup file, or keep searching everybody around again. Definitly not practical.

Please, don't flame me. I use Linux everyday, even though I've Win2000 installed when I use to play online games (usually on the weekends. I'm a Diablo and CS online freaky ). Think about the pain of installing and running a game under WineX (if it really is possible to run at all, have not seem anything running besides notepad.exe yet...).

The best is to have a good distro as Mandy 9.1. Everything is on the distro's CDs. Mplayer(and a bunch of skins), Licq (and a bunch of skins), gaim, mozilla, avifille, xine, gnome, kde, window maker, icewm, blackbox and even the crap wine. Or, have the time and patient to install the new stuff, configure, compile, make, make install, fix problems, download more problems and lose your social life to sit in front the computer all the long lonely day lol...
 
Old 05-09-2003, 09:38 PM   #20
cuckoopint
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Quote:
It will not appear into gnomes menu or kde, or not even on the task bar of any window manages, do you know why? Because there's no standard between those applications.
OTOH, MS is getting praised for changing their graphics in the will-be release of longhorn...as if it was some step forward in innovation and technology.
; )

MS is a good example of the average Joe - no matter what innovation there is (or lack of), you must sell your product to the average Joe. Well guess what? Lots of people don't care about the average Joe. That's because the average Joe won't care - he wants a done deal, and that's what MS delivers. that's why their revenues are still going up. I don't know about you, but I don't want to sacrifice customizability so the average Joe can walk around saying they use Linux, and backlash at the community the first time something doesn't work out for him...

End of rant...
 
Old 05-09-2003, 09:44 PM   #21
Mega Man X
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Old 05-09-2003, 09:47 PM   #22
Electro
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PRO:
No Blue Screen.
Speaks in my own language--geek.
Almost infinite amount of memory can be used.
Almost infinite amount of hard drives instead of 26 drives.
Much easier to find out the serial number of the device without opening up the computer.
Infinite possiblities using bash scripting instead a few with DOS batch files.
Handles memory much better than Windows.
Multiple users don't take up useless space like what Windows does. Windows eats up tons of space for each user.
Its more space efficient. Each file is 4096 bytes instead of 32 kilobytes.
No spyware
No more having the OS controlling your way of work. The OS works for you.
The pride of the LINUX community will not stop. It will fight if it has to. Not even Microsoft can not stop it.

CON:
Trying to make people to switch over.
Trying to not boot multiple times a day.
Do not screw up the configuration files when you are half a sleep.



Megaman X, try VMware and install Diablo II. Diablo II doesn't really need a 3D rendering card to work. It does simple 2D objects all the time. For counter strike, you can try installing it but it may not be playable. Sound in VMware is a little skippy.
 
Old 05-09-2003, 09:58 PM   #23
cuckoopint
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Quote:
Almost infinite amount of memory can be used.
Almost infinite amount of hard drives instead of 26 drives.
[Homer]
scsi .... hmmmm .. doh!
[/Homer]

Even though, the numbers are kind of impressive...don't boast too much. Your average user won't have 'infinite' memory (or close), and OTOH, linux is still kind of a noob when it comes more to the really big servers. Not saying its not in the game, but at this point it can usually only replace Windows and smaller Unix servers... those big ones are still running better on Unix. More importantly though, linux is not w/o hope.... even though big server support is being worked on in Linux, I think it has a better chance of hitting the market if more linux projects start thinking distibuted power... because that seems to be the near future.

Just my 2 yens.
 
Old 05-10-2003, 05:58 AM   #24
Mega Man X
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@ Electro:

Thanks for the tips about running those games my friend. I will check it out. It's really annoying to switch OS to play games, I wanna stay at my Blackbox desktop all the time

Thanks again
 
Old 05-10-2003, 09:06 AM   #25
llama_meme
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Some practical exemples:

Quote:
Installing ICQ on Windows. Download and run exe. It will stay into your task bar automaticly.

Installing Licq on Linux. download, gunzip, tar, ./configure (probaly you will get erros, then fixes the missing files, install packages and classic Linux things) Make (takes usually a long time), make install (a little time). Done. It will not appear into gnomes menu or kde, or not even on the task bar of any window manages, do you know why? Because there's no standard between those applications. All linux applications and managers are made my diferent peoples, at different times and places. So you have to run it from terminal or create a shortcut yourself. Run terminal, type licq.
Now you are running . licq also does not download directly from ICQ's server your contact list, so or you import it from a backup file, or keep searching everybody around again. Definitly not practical.
This isn't a fair comparison - it wouldn't be much easier to install a program from source in Windows. Probably be harder, if anything, because there really isn't any standard way of doing it in Windows.

Alex
 
Old 05-12-2003, 04:56 AM   #26
browny_amiga
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Wink all pros and cons, complete (?) list

Okey, after reading some posts, here an attempt to quote ALL pros and cons:

Pros:
rock solid (better than xp)
NO reboots (winxp is still reboot, reboot, reboot)
much cheaper than windows (free)
much more secure than windows (the three pilars of Linux over windows: security, stability and cost!)
much more customizable
runs on much smaller hardware (winxp does not run well on 266mhz boxes ;-)
Linux is both server OS and client OS. Win2k and Win2k server are almost the same, exept the price ;-)
Linux has a neat cute mascot called tux (the penguini), while windows has this boring flag
Linux shows you how your computer works
No viruses (not suprising, they could not do much)
free development tools (C++ is included)
amazing professional grade software included (DNS, dhcp, ssh, apache webserver, ftp, sendmail)
Linux does not need the addition "professional", because it always was
No dependence on any "money sucking" company
competent user support, I never met so many talented smart people than here on linux (users are not dumb)
Most tools are already included in Linux, which you have to pay/look for in Windows
Examples of this: floppy image writer (dd), firewall (iptables), portscanner (nmap), compiler (gcc), universal admin tool (webmin)
no service packs necessary
no hangs when shutting down the system
much more choice in nice beautiful windowing-environments (KDE and gnome)
WAY BETTER and more screensavers (gnome)
Office is included in Linux (RedHat and SuSe)

Cons:
It's not all point and click.
Does not favour home (non profession users) much, because one needs to know how it works.
One has to read manuals and cannot get along without it.
Reboots do not solve problems like they do in windows.
Your wallet is going to get heavy from all the things you don't spend any money for in linux.
You are not using the "major" most used OS there is (DUH!)
Your are not helping Bill Gates become even richer.
Almost no support for Games, scanners and digital cameras


I hope I got the complete list here.

Quick decider matrix:
I guess if you want an OS that does the things your way, does not ask you stupid questions all the time (are you sure you want to do this?) No I am not sure, that why I am so insistently pushing that button, you are right with linux. If you value security, stability and install things without rebooting that darn system after everything, then linux is it.

If on the other hand you value ease of use over everything else, you do not care how things work and don't want to know, you don't see what that thing about security is all about, you get bothered by all these nasty passwords that one should enter/remember, then windows is it.

I guess ON THE DESKTOP you have to work harder to get Linux running the applications that you need, but

ON THE SERVER, it is really much better than windows, because there is no escape from all the technical details (don't know what ftp, dns, services and startscripts are. You got to learn that, unless you want to be always a mediocre professional)

So, that should be enough to decide and I am sure you got too much input already ;-)

One good thing more about linux that does not apply to Microsoft:
In Windows, if you got a problem you call the support line, wait hours, pay plenty of money for that and maybe receive a solution (usualy not, wait for the next release, pray that this new service pack will help you)
In linux you search this forum or post a question and the extremely competent and smart people help you out in no time. There is hardly any problem that so much brainpower cannot solve.

Cheers

Markus
 
Old 05-12-2003, 05:05 AM   #27
browny_amiga
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Talking games on linux

@Megaman X

Let's not be cruel and steal the whole computer market from M$ shall we? They are loosing the servermarket and the desktop is under fire. But Gaming is still a primary Windows function, and I believe from personal experience that this is actually the best thing to do on windows.

Example:
Windows98, crashes ever 3 hours or so when doing business applications on it (that use 30% cpu and 40% of the memory)
When doing games that use 100% cpu and 100% ram, the system runs for 5 or more hours without any crashes. Stable like the commercials say ;--)

Windows is always trying "professional" and even in WinXP they don't meassure up to my standard of the p-word. (remember: stability, security, cost.
The two first words are most characteristic of professional business use)

Cheers

Markus
 
Old 05-12-2003, 05:12 AM   #28
browny_amiga
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Wink installing is simple

@Megaman X

Hey, installing is not that hard in linux. I use RPM almost all the time and that thing is more fab than any installer in windows----> Does not even ask you where to put it, just installs automatically.

I am not a friend myself of these self-compiling. Much too complicated and usualy a nice RPM will do the job more efficient.
 
Old 05-12-2003, 06:34 AM   #29
macewan
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i've been working with redhat 8 for the last week or so. debian is my preferred flavor. from what i've seen if rpm was merged with rpm with a default synaptic frontend with an automatic (xsm?) root password request and an easy way of adding to the sources.list this would be awesome for newbies.

it has to be easy. it must be easier. if average joe is to consider linux as a desktop in the next couple of years.
 
Old 05-12-2003, 12:25 PM   #30
Mega Man X
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@browny_amiga:

Quote:
Let's not be cruel and steal the whole computer market from M$ shall we? They are loosing the servermarket and the desktop is under fire. But Gaming is still a primary Windows function, and I believe from personal experience that this is actually the best thing to do on windows.
That's so true man Well, everything on it's time. I really hope sooner or later we will get this gaming part as well to our penguim . I've some experiences about game programming with DirectX. Maybe in a galaxy, far, far away, when I'm done with University I can give Linux a hand .

Quote:
Hey, installing is not that hard in linux. I use RPM almost all the time and that thing is more fab than any installer in windows----> Does not even ask you where to put it, just installs automatically.
I'm a Linux newbie after all I'm sure you will laugh at me . I've never installed an rpm file that I've downloaded from the net, only the ones included with my distro. All the stuff I've download I've installed from source. In another words, I know very well how to install from source and everything but not from rpm's I'm weird :'(
 
  


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