Hey All,

I used to use RH Fedora and Windows XP on the same box, multi-boot via GRUB. However, I decided to switch to Debian (curious, mainly). Anyhow, I wiped the whole machine, threw XP on first, and followed the debian.org instructions for setting up an XP/Debian dual boot using the NT Boot loader and winimage's bootpart.

Everything worked as expected, no problems. However, now that I'm rebuilding the kernel to get Xwindows up (need USB HID support):

I'm not quite sure how to add multiple kernel options to the boot menu, or if that's even possible at all.

My understanding of boot loaders is rather limited. What's the best way for me to get Windows XP and multiple bootable linux kernels via Debian all working happily on my machine without wiping everything again?

The Debian dual-boot install process proposes the nt boot loader solution, which worked, it just fails to mention multiple kernel configurations.

Thanks,
loopyzort

Install LILO

Thanks Chinaman,

I'm using Lilo. Is far as I understand, the nt bootloader presents me with 2 choices, windows and linux. I can't specify in the nt bootloader which kernel to use, I guess it just points directly to lilo? I'm a bit of a , so this doesn't make sense to me. So, if I choose "Debian Linux" from my nt bootloader, I believe it runs lilo, which automatically loads the default /boot/vmlinuz kernel, which is linked to 2.4.22, or something like that. Are you saying that the process should be:

- NT Bootloader, select Linux
- That starts LILO, which will present another menu
- From lilo menu, select appropriate kernel and use it
?

Is that possible? If so, I won't bug you any more and I'll go out and read up on lilo and lilo.conf setup. I did notice, though, that there are already two kernel entries enabled in lilo.conf, yet LILO still automatically boots into the default.

Thanks again for your help,
loopyzort

Haven't used the NT bootloader for multibooting with Linux. I meant for you to install LILO in Debian
and use it rather than the NT bootloader.

No matter, if you'd rather use NTLDR - it is a PC (personal computer). It appears as if your LILO must
be set to automatically load, rather than giving you some amount of time to choose the kernel; or
either the menu bootloader is not installed.

You're not bugging anyone, and these are legitimate questions. Since you're willing, issue
$ man lilo.conf
and see if you can understand. The main part you need to read is the sample lilo.conf file and the
4 paragraphs immediately following before Global Options; then in that section read about default,
delay, and prompt. There may be more - I just woke up a little bit ago and haven't had my first
cup of coffee. If you have prompt and timeout = x where x is some amount of time, LILO should be
giving you those kernel choices.

Post back if you fixed it, or if you need more help. If you do need more help, post the output of
$ cat /etc/lilo.conf

I would set lilo as your only boot-loader. It's very easy to add multiple kernel entries to it. Just copy your current entry and then add .old to vmlinuz usually, as I think the old kernel is renamed automatically when you make install the new one.

Usually I rename everything to something that tells me what things are like Debian2.4.22 and Debian2.6.6 and the kernels I also rename to vmlinuz-2.6.6deb vmlinuz-2.4.22deb (and System.map/config files also).

here is an example lilo.conf (mine) that does kind of what you are wanting, though I have more available on it.

Thank you both, Chinaman and xanas3712:

Okay, so I believe I've resolved my situation for now. I'd like to note that I'd prefer to use lilo or grub as my bootloader, but I was following the Debian.org windows/linux dual boot installation procedure verbatim and chose the ntloader as to not jeopardize my xp install (I really need it for remote vpn purposes). However, I may end up switching to lilo as my primary bootloader anyway (see end of message for questions, thanks!). So, basically, here's the summary of what I did, for other newbies with similar problems:

- Using xp installer, partitioned drive, first chunk for xp (bootable), 2nd chunk unformatted, installed xp
- Using Debian install disk, partitioned unformatted space into linux primary and linux swap (both unbootable), installed debian, installed lilo on linux primary, and did _not_ set lilo to be the primary bootloader
- Using winimage/bootpart in XP (per Debian's dual-boot installation process), I set up the ntloader to recognize Windows and the linux primary partition (which has lilo)
- Then, upon boot, I'm presented with Windows or "Linux", which points to lilo.
- My problem started when I wanted to add another kernel and have my choice of kernels at boot time...

- The solution, after Chinaman's help, was to RTFM! Hehe, not even the manual, but to examine the /etc/lilo.conf in a little more depth. Basically, there's a section of the lilo.conf that says:
...
prompt
timeout=50
message=/boot/message
default=linux
...

In a vanilla Debian install, most of this is commented out, so there is no prompt or timeout and lilo just loads the default kernel. All I had to do was uncomment and make sure both of my kernels were added to lilo.conf, and everything worked, though not optimally.

So now I have:
- boot
- ntloader presents "windows" or "linux". select linux
- enter lilo
- lilo presents "kernel-a" or "kernel-b"
- select kernel and yay, boot into linux

This is a bit convoluted, I should probably just do away with the ntloader, get lilo or grub to recognize windows and all my kernels, and use that alone.

Is there any reason I should keep this setup in place? Is there a simple/safe way to get rid of the ntloader and have lilo or grub handle everything without a re-install of linux or xp?

Thanks again for all of your help, you rock! I'll attempt to answer the above questions myself...

- loopyzort

Personally I've never been able to understand and successfully setup GRUB, but LILO is easy enough. No need to reinstall anything, especially since you can read and follow instructions so well. All I probably need to tell you is to run liloconfig as root, then afterwards, run /sbin/lilo and reboot. However, here's a little LILO tutorial.

Hope this helps. Don't fear LILO, it's painless!

Standard Disclaimer: This works flawlessly on a Slackware Linux 9.1 system - YMMV on another distro. ;-)

Thanks again so much Chinaman,

I'm still having big troubles, though. It seems that if I set lilo as the main boot loader in the mbr via the Debian 3.0 non-us install, everything works fine. However, once I make any changes to lilo.conf (even just changing the name of one of the bootables) and run lilo, I get the following when I select my linux option on reboot:
Uncompressing kernel.........
crc error
Unable to load (or something like that)

I get this error most of the time, about 75% of the boots. Over the weekend I gave up on debian/LILO and tried Slackware, to see if it would work any better, and ran in to other problems. (On loading of the install disk I would get "Bad EIP value." I found a resolution to this problem by "Boot bare.i with the extra parameter 'nousb'" which resolved that issue, but my keyboard and mouse are usb, so I was pretty much stuck there...).

So I finally caved and threw Fedora back on there, it installed on the first try with Grub, xwindows runs, and it seems that I'm back to the RH bloated system that works. I was trying to get away from Red Hat because I wanted a "less-enhanced" linux, I feel like they add too much on top of the kernel that I don't want. I'm ultimately shooting for: the most recent, stable kernel, apache, mysql, samba, and Xwindows (maybe KDE on top of that, but I've been using blackbox/fluxbox for a while and prefer to set up the X environment myself).

I don't know that else to say. I'm a bit fried with installs right now, my only other thought was to install Debian from disk, immediately install grub and see if that will resolve my crc errors and the likes.

I really appreciate all of your help. I guess I'm a RH user for now?

Thanks again,
loopyzort

Bad news. Let me empathize with you. Here's the story...
[story]
Last week I pulled my box apart and rearranged the drives. Now I've got my two Maxtor hds as masters, my Sony CD-RW and Sony DVD+/-RW as slaves. That seemed like a good time to do a total reinstall of Slack, since I began using it last November, and I'd created quite a bit of entropy in the process. I did a proper low level format of both drives before starting.

My goal is to be Windoze free, and as soon as Scribus matures some more, I'm there - but for now, I'm still using Windoze for PageMaker to do DTP. I build and repair computers, and never know when someone's going to call me for tech support over the phone. Therefore, it was my desire to put W98, W2K, and WXP on one hard drive, with the most excellent Slackware on the other drive. One never knows what OS the person calling will be running, and it's much easier to tech if you can boot into the same one and follow the trail on-screen.

I partitioned the drive with Disk Manager as so:For 2 days, while working on other comps, also, I tried to install W98 to hda1, but every time it wanted to format hda2 for some reason. Off and on I searched the internet for answers. Finally, I formatted again and just made one 5GB FAT32 partition for it, and installed, but when I tried to add the others there were problems again. So, forget W98 - who needs it anyway? Just gamers, and I don't play games, nor tech for them. So I format again, removing the first FAT32 part, and start installing W2K and WXP. That takes the better part of 2 days - installing, then removing, then tweaking, then updating, then patching, then tweaking some more, then installing software. Ahhh...finally, they're up and running and I can get to my beautiful Slackware Linux system.

Well, I started on it 2 days ago, and still haven't finished the install (which I can do on this P4 in less than 30 minutes). My Slack mentor told me to select the "newbie" optional for Package Series Selection, so I did. During this install, I'm noting everything I do, so that I can eventually write a less esoteric tutorial to post on my website when I redesign it. Little did I realize just how tedious this newbie install choice is, and how little I know about the many different packages offered with a basic Slack 9.1 install. Last night I went to bed around 11:00, just after my screen displayed INSERT NEXT DISC. I've got 20 pages of notes so far, and read about packages I've never heard of.

Yesterday I emailed my mentor complaining about the "newbie" option, and the amount of time it takes to select or discard each and every package, and he replied, "Let me put it this way: Slack requires a high level of responsibility - the only way to be able to live up to that is by knowledge... I'm happy to make decisions for you, if you wish do a full install, send me a listing of what's actually installed ls -l /var/log/packages/ and I'll send you back a script that un-installs stuff I believe you won't need. You should, however, really try to get a feel for what's there, and why it's there." Now that's a good man! He gave it to me straight, and that was all the incentive I needed to continue.

As soon as I post this to you, I will enter OK, as I've inserted DISC 2 and I'm ready to continue. Nothing worthwhile is ever easy, and nothing that you don't have to work for is ever appreciated. After I finish installing all these packages today, I'll have more Slack knowledge than before I started. My goal is to be totally free from Windoze. When I started with Linux one year ago, the first distro I tried was RedHat (forever after known as DeadRat). If that were the only Linux distro, I'd happily format it out of my comp and run W2K - which is superior to DeadRat IMO. You're correct - it's bloated - and the RPM system is a mess! Dependency hell, to say the least. I began to read, searching for a Linux distro that was not much more than the kernel to begin with, and then I could add whatever programs I wanted. The most basic DeadRat 9 install gives you 587 packages! From what I read, it looked like Debian or Gentoo, and after reading about the lengthy Gentoo install, I chose Debian.

For me, the install of Debian was easy, because I used a document called "The Very Verbose Debian 3.0 Installation Walkthrough". The same guy wrote another doc about rebuilding the Debian kernel, so that was a breeze, also. However, apt-get is where I left Debian in the dust. After experimenting with Woody, Sarge, and Sid for a while, I eventually chose Sid. Worked good, and I ran Debian for about 4 - 5 months. When I decided I wanted to step up from WindowMaker to KDE, there were problems. The KDE package was not available in Sid, because that version was unusable - and remained that way for 2 weeks or more while I waited. The solution was to get KDE from Woody, but to do that, I had to add stable to my sources.list, which caused problems. Apt-get wanted me to change some libraries in order to get KDE, but that would cause other apps not to function. So, I began to look for a new distro.

Most of the mods at LQ, it seems, use Slack. And for my experience, most of the threads I'd seen answered correctly at LQ were answered by a Slack user. I'd read the reviews section, and from these experiences, I wanted to try Slack. But I'd seen so many people say things like, "One you have Slack, you'll never go back!" Nice emotional sayings, but nothing you could really evaluate. Heck, if we all jumped at that, Slack would be the only distro left after a while. Nevertheless, I d/led the first 2 Slack isos, burned them with cdrecord, and the rest is history!
[/story]

So today is the third day for installing Slack 9.1 fresh using the newbie option for package selection. It's been a long, arduous journey, but I'm almost there. Jesus rose on the third day, and I'm believing I'll have a new Slack install on this 'third day'.

With Debian I had that same error occurring on alternate boots. If memory servers me correctly, the error message would not happen if I let it boot the default without pressing Enter. I got this ->
Loading Linux............
Uncompressing Linux............
invalid compressed format (err=1)
-- System halted
and it would only come back with a hard reset, not with the 3-finger salute. And I couldn't get the X server with my USB mouse, so I installed a PS/2 mouse and then recompiled with USB support. I also see in my notes where I got ->
crc error
-- System halted
I forget what actually caused these errors - maybe something to do with a compressed image and initrd, but eventually I dumped GrUB and installed LiLO and they stopped. Debian ran really fast, but there were always problems of one kind or another with apt-get.

It's really sad to read that you gave up on more pure Linux distros for a commercial one:
and though I know that's probably flame bait for the users of that convoluted distro, it's fact.

There are many people who run Slack with a USB mouse and keyboard. I use a USB mouse, and have never had one single problem with it from Slack. I'll also be using a USB keyboard this time around, because I've worn the letters off about a dozen keys on my PS/2 keyboard. These things can be installed until you find out how. Start in the Slackware forum here at LQ, and also use http://www.google.com/linux for answers. If you're a contributing member at LQ you can use the Google search engine to search LQ, which returns much better and more specific results than the basic search engine.

Don't give up. Slackware will give you those few apps you need, and run very fast and stable. It multi-tasks very well, and isn't a flash-in-the-pan. It's the oldest running Linux distro, and for good reason. Patrick isn't going to change it with every new wind that blows up some corporate pion's skirt, and he doesn't have a bunch of maintainers, either. Learn how to get it installed, and then learn how to compile from source, and soon you'll be happier than you could have imagined.

Wow! Thank you so much for the dedicated response Chinaman. Hmm, I don't know where to begin. I hope your Slackware install went well. I actually downloaded the Slack 9.1 isos last night, I'm going to give it another shot. I want to emphasize that I reverted to Red Hat only as an interim "experiment" to see if it would give me the same boot troubles that Debian/Lilo were. I really like Slackware in theory, my machine will be minimal enough that I don't need to get tangled in a package manager, I'd prefer to just build from source. So I'm going to give it a try tonight. I guess this thread must be good flame ammo in the case _for_ red hat, as I'm trying to install debian/slackware, tripping over the process, and installed fedora with one shot as a "control" test. Otoh, my resolve to _not_ use RH even though it installs so easily is a good indicator of how much I don't like it :-D

I know package lists can be dreadful, I confess I don't know what half of the libraries/packages are used for, but I'm slowly learning, and I guess that's what I like about these hands-on distros, they force you to know what you're dealing with. I think this is one of the main benefits of running linux, you can, and most times, must know your machine, your os, your network... It's kinda like buying a bicycle or building a bicycle: Buying may be easier in the short term, but you'll be a little lost if you need to repack your bottom bracket bearings, and the bike may come with tassles, a bell and a basket that you just don't want.

So, I'll forge ahead with Slackware and see what happens.

It sounds like you were having the same problems with Debian/GRUB that I was having with Debian/Lilo? I guess that's old news, as I'm off to try Slackware instead... Sorry I can't address any of your partitioning woes, I thought my dual-boot was complicated, whoa...

You mention a Slack mentor, is this standard?

Thanks again so much for your help, I'll re-post to this thread with news of my Slack adventures -hopefully good news...

ttyl,
loopyzort

Slack install went well...learned a lot...like Roaring Penguin (rp-pppoe-3.5-i386-1) is the only support for PPPoE included in Slack 9.1

Whilst you're using DeadRat to "experiment," take the time to print some output of your hardware, etc., so that when you reinstall Slack, you'll have an idea of some things you need. There are some really good docs at http://www.linux.org/docs/ldp/howto/...EX/howtos.html and a specific one that you might want to read is Eric S. Raymond's Linux Installation HOWTO along with this Linux Pre-Installation check list which will help you tremendously as you install and then recompile your kernel. If DeadRat is booting well for you, copy the grub config file so that you may refer to it later...even if you use LiLO in Slack. And don't forget to check out the files in these two directories once you install Slack:
/usr/doc/Linux-HOWTOs/
/usr/doc/Linux-FAQs/

As for flame bait, we'll see...if the statements made were true, and the intention wasn't to incite a demented user, it doesn't matter. I'm not a long-time experienced *nix user, but IMO making *nix more like Windoze, or full of gui's for people who don't want to read and learn to have an easier time, is not in the best interest of the computer owner/user in the long run. On this computer, Slack required just a little more from me than the DeadRat 9 install; but it gave me all the libraries, etc. that I need so that I can compile from source without the dependency problems that were inherent in the RPM system. The Slack system, with more packages installed than DeadRat, runs a lot better...especially with Fluxbox as the window manager, rather than the default desktop environments KDE or GNOME that come with DeadRat.

Though it was terribly tedious, I would encourage you to choose the Newbie option for the Package Series Selection in Slackware. When you're not sure about a package, install it, and when you know you don't need it, leave it out. It's quite easy to add or remove a package later with Slack's pkgtool. Your bicycle analogy is very good.

The partitioning issue was a Windoze problem. It could have been resolved, I'm sure, if I'd Googled for it long enough...but having W98 wasn't high enough on my priority list to spend any more time with it. I've a couple more things to do with that drive, then I'll ghost the W2K and XP installs, and maybe one day I'll repartition and try adding W98 again...

A Slack mentor is not standard IMO...I was blessed by God with someone to help me. I live in China, and there is no LUG (Linux Users Group) where I live. You should join one if you can. In fact, there aren't many Linux users (except for the ISP servers) because in China, copyright means "the right to copy," so they don't pay over 3RMB (~ $0.35 USD) for any software. They use copy CD's of all M$ Windoze and anything else they want. It's amazing to hear that they're using software (from copies) as soon as it's released in America, but the hardware is usually about a year behind. It may be different in places like Beijing, Shanghai, Shenzhen, etc. but not here.

thanks again Chinaman. i really appreciate all of your help & encouragement. haha, copyright = right to copy, that's hilarious.

so, i actually read your post after i:

- reformatted my linux partition (thus wiping away redhat)
- downloaded slackware 9.1 isos
- discovered the reason the slackware install was giving me problems was because it didn't like my belkin usb kvm switch
- ran the slackware install successfully with keyboard/mouse plugged in the old-fashioned way
- enabled usb HID module on the kernel
- booted back into slackware with kvm switch peripherals
- discovered that the slackware install worked seamlessly from that point on
- found that xwindows worked fine, with minimal configuration
- found that slack provides blackbox and fluxbox in the x11 package (woo hoo)
- found that slackware presented me with the ideal linux solution once I got over that stupid kvm problem

so great, it seems that all of my troubles are more or less resolved for now. unfortunately, i used the "menu" install option, rather than "newbie", so i might not know _everything_ that's running on my system. and i'm still trying to figure out how slackware boot processes work (there's no rcN.d directories, just one main directory?). and i'll have to run nmap & iptables to make sure everything is locked down. and i'll be tinkering with ndiswrapper to get my wireless card working. and i'll probably rebuild to kernel 2.6.6. and for some reason when i set my hostname via 'hostname', it forgets on reboot and resets back to darkstar. and my mouse is a bit too sensitive. and my fluxbox themes don't load. and...

but the ball is rolling, i have a working linux distro that i'm pleased with. now, i can google to my heart's content and learn/re-learn all the underpinnings of the linux os.

thanks again so much for the help,
loopyzort

Glad to hear about the kvm switch issue. I need one here, but haven't bought it yet.
That "newbie" install option name is a little misleading. Even the Slackware-HOWTO says, but there's three things I can suggest:
1) $ ps (and read man ps for switches) gives a snapshot of the current processes, whereas top is the same but repetitive
2) to display a repetitive listing of the most CPU-intensive tasks on the system, run $ top
3) if something won't start now, you may be missing libraries - run $ ldd `which gaim` for instance,
to see which libraries are missing. I left out libtool by accident, and gaim (and others) wouldn't start.
If I'm not too far off base, this may help you there: http://linuxtipps.sourceforge.net/sh.../en/faq/56.htm
unSpawn's the man...check out the Linux - Security forum
Too far in this 3-story concrete and steel home for wireless, so haven't checked it out.
Yep - against my better judgment, I'm going to check it out soon, also - have the source.
I run # netconfig and never have any trouble with that.
Check out Core Pointer's InputDevice section in your /etc/X11/XF86Config file.
Fluxbox is great. I've never used themes...post back how you fixed that.
That's what I need to do...in my quest to be Windoze free, all I've done in this year with Linux is work on getting my hardware to work, and finding replacement apps to get my work done. Now, one year after I started, and 6 months using Slackware, I'm trying to learn how this machine works.
My pleasure...just trying to give back for what's been given to me.