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Old 04-25-2011, 05:51 AM   #16
TobiSGD
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IceWM is, in my opinion, to hard to configure for a newbie, I don't know EDE, so I can't say about that.
Sadly, currently no distro has Trinity (which is a fork of KDE 3.5) in its repositories, so you have to install it manually.
 
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Old 04-25-2011, 05:54 AM   #17
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I believe it is a flawed idea to think that if DE has windows-like look and feel, it will make it easier to use. On the contrary, linux is very different to windows in almost every way. Similar looking doesn't mean it will work the same way and will only add to confusion for new users.
Best bet is to treat linux as a totally different system and start with DE that is nothing like windows. That way window based expectations and preconceptions will be left behind and new users will think of linux for what it is - totally different OS.
All windows look-alike DEs do to new users is stave off the use of command line. But, sooner or later, will have to come to grips with it.
 
Old 04-25-2011, 05:55 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by TobiSGD View Post
IceWM is, in my opinion, to hard to configure for a newbie, I don't know EDE, so I can't say about that.
Sadly, currently no distro has Trinity (which is a fork of KDE 3.5) in its repositories, so you have to install it manually.
Are you saying before people where using Trinity before KDE 3.5 came along.And if so what was so good about KDE 3.5 than Trinity .
 
Old 04-25-2011, 06:02 AM   #19
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As KDE made the step from version 3.5 to version 4 they changed a lot of the look and feel (and made it a resource hog). Many people were used to the old version and didn't want to make the step to version 4. So KDE 3.5 was forked into the Trinity Project, so that those people who want that have KDE 3.5 version that gets further development. That is one of the great advantages of open source software.
 
Old 04-25-2011, 07:33 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nec207 View Post
Are you saying before people where using Trinity before KDE 3.5 came along.And if so what was so good about KDE 3.5 than Trinity .
I think KDE3.5 was the only beginner friendly desktop for Linux.

But part of a desktop being beginner friendly was being the default in beginner friendly distributions. Mepis 7 and 8.0 were the most beginner friendly distributions and had KDE as default desktop.

Newer versions of Mepis and KUbuntu now have KDE4 as default. That takes too much away from their beginner friendliness.

I don't know that status of Trinity. But I think if someone updated a distribution like Mepis 8.0 (or even KUbuntu) to current kernel and other current software, using Trinity as the desktop, that could easily be more beginner friendly than any available distribution. But so far as I know, the closest you can get now to beginner friendly is Ubuntu with Gnome.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rizzy View Post
I believe it is a flawed idea to think that if DE has windows-like look and feel, it will make it easier to use.
Windows has a better GUI than any Linux DE. Windows is not a better OS, but it does have a better GUI. If a Linux DE acted more like Windows, it would be actually easier to use, not just more familiar.

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Similar looking doesn't mean it will work the same way and will only add to confusion for new users.
I totally agree. Every attempt I've seen to make a Linux Desktop look more like Windows has been entirely about the look. If it looks the same but acts different, that is just confusing.

BTW, I also have had to use a Windows system where someone had done a perfect job of making it look like an Apple desktop. But it still acted like Windows in every way. Why do people put such efforts into stupid aspects of appearance.

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All windows look-alike DEs do to new users is stave off the use of command line. But, sooner or later, will have to come to grips with it.
Linux command line is more powerful and flexible than Windows command line and more powerful and flexible than any GUI. It is also hard to learn, poorly documented and inconvenient to use.

A GUI is a fundamentally better user interface. Most of the time you don't need the extra power and flexibility of command line. It is wonderful that a powerful command line system exists. It is a good idea to learn a moderate amount about it. But using the GUI is still more effective for most purposes.

One giant flaw in the design of many tools is that the designer of the tool acts as if that will be the most important tool the user ever uses, so the user should be expected to invest a lot of time and effort into learning how to optimally use the tool.

It is much better to design a tool so that someone who uses it occasionally can get basic tasks done through an interface so obvious it doesn't need to be learned. In most applications, a great set of right click context menus is the best feature to allow effective use without a big investment in learning. Each visible object has the list of likely actions that might be done to/with that object.

Windows integrates the desktop with the file browser, a good idea, not generally copied in Linux. Integrating file browser and web browser is a bad idea. It is sometimes convenient, but more often confusing and a source of security problems.

In the integrated desktop/file-browser Windows has a good set of right click context menus. Every Linux DE/file-browser I've seen falls well short.

When some operation you need is missing from the context menu, an advanced user can go to significant effort and find out how to do that operation. Then in Windows an advanced user should know how to add that easily to the context menu. So you need the effort to find the method, but you don't need the further effort to memorize the answer for next time. How to add things to Windows context menus isn't exactly well documented, but it is easy enough to find with a web search. How to do the same in Linux GUIs appears to be more completely hidden from beginning/intermediate users.

Last edited by johnsfine; 04-25-2011 at 08:09 AM.
 
Old 04-25-2011, 07:47 AM   #21
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As KDE made the step from version 3.5 to version 4 they changed a lot of the look and feel (and made it a resource hog). Many people were used to the old version and didn't want to make the step to version 4. So KDE 3.5 was forked into the Trinity Project, so that those people who want that have KDE 3.5 version that gets further development. That is one of the great advantages of open source software
So people that use Trinity and did not want KDE version 4 use KDE version 3.5 .

Quote:
I don't know that status of Trinity. But I think if someone updated a distribution like Mepis 8.0 (or even KUbuntu) to current kernel and other current software, using Trinity as the desktop, that could easily be more beginner friendly than any available distribution. But so far as I know, the closest you can get now to beginner friendly is Ubuntu with Gnome.
So you saying use Ubuntu OS or KUbuntu OS and than get Gnome GUI or Trinity GU.So Gnome ,Trinity and KDE version 3.5 are the closes to a beginner friendly GUI.

Last edited by nec207; 04-25-2011 at 08:01 AM.
 
Old 04-25-2011, 08:17 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nec207 View Post
So you saying use Ubuntu OS or KUbuntu OS and than get Gnome GUI or Trinity GU.So Gnome ,Trinity and KDE version 3.5 are the closes to a beginner friendly GUI.
I'm saying use Ubuntu, which has Gnome by default, because Ubuntu/Gnome is less beginner friendly than obsolete Mepis with KDE3.5 but more beginner friendly than KDE4.

I am not saying use KUbuntu, because I've tried it myself and I think KUbuntu has magnified the faults of KDE4. I think it is a terrible distribution. If you want to try KDE4, I think current Mepis is much better, but still not good enough, so I'm not recommending it.

I am not saying you should take some distribution that defaults to Gnome or KDE4 and switch it to Trinity. I haven't tried that myself, but I have tried other DE switches away from the default of the distribution. That has worked out pretty badly. An expert can easily switch to a different DE environment than the distribution default. But the results are usually too confusing for a beginner. You won't know which distribution specific documentation is still valid vs. which relies on the default DE. Things will go wrong that an expert would instantly understand and adjust, but you won't even be able to ask for help effectively, because you are running a weird mix of environment.

Last edited by johnsfine; 04-25-2011 at 08:19 AM.
 
Old 04-25-2011, 09:32 AM   #23
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@ johnsfine- KDE 3.5 the only beginner friendly desktop for Linux? Odd. I found that KDE 3.X was very easy to move to from windows, gnome less so, but I didnt have any major problems with either. Maybe I'd just played with too many windows versions by that time, and would have called myself at least an 'advanced' windows user, but still, I was a linux newbie.

I still find gnome the most confusing of all the linux desktops I've used. Gnone is the one I am most likely to find myself saying "now where did they put this?"

Maybe that is mostly because I dont use gnome much, maybe its the way my brain works. I dont think so, most of the people I've put in front of a gnome desktop have said the same thing, they tend to find XFCE, LXDE, or KDE X.X easier.

I dont think that KDE 4.X is that much harder than KDE 3.X, once you change over to the the 'classic' menu.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nec207 View Post
So people that use Trinity and did not want KDE version 4 use KDE version 3.5 .

So you saying use Ubuntu OS or KUbuntu OS and than get Gnome GUI or Trinity GU.So Gnome ,Trinity and KDE version 3.5 are the closes to a beginner friendly GUI.
Because trinity has to be added to any system, according to TobiSGD (I'd almost bet he/she/it/them LOL is right) its not going to be newbie friendly at all.

I used to love KDE3.X but IMO trinity is mainly for people who loved KDE3.X and would rather use KDE3.X over any other desktop. Thats fair enough, and for those users its a nice solution, but for somebody just starting its not a good plan.

That is part of why I posted that yuo should avoid gnome 2.X, its going to end up the same way as KDE 3.X in the future (meaning that if you want it, you'll have to install it yourself manually).

By the way, its worth remembering that when users say "like a win98 desktop" it can be meant several ways. Sometimes it means 'clunky', sometimes 'old school', sometimes its 'ugly'. So when you see people say that desktop XXX is like win98 that doesnt mean that its going to look like, or act like win98 much, if at all.
 
Old 04-25-2011, 10:33 AM   #24
nec207
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I used to love KDE3.X but IMO trinity is mainly for people who loved KDE3.X and would rather use KDE3.X over any other desktop. Thats fair enough, and for those users its a nice solution, but for somebody just starting its not a good plan.
So what happen to KDE3.X are you saying you cannot get KDE3.X and that is why people are now using trinity for people that like KDE3.X ?

Quote:
That is part of why I posted that yuo should avoid gnome 2.X, its going to end up the same way as KDE 3.X in the future (meaning that if you want it, you'll have to install it yourself manually).
So you saying that KDE3.X and gnome 2.X was easy to use but the new updates are much harder to use and does not look any where close to windows 98?

Last edited by nec207; 04-25-2011 at 10:34 AM.
 
Old 04-25-2011, 10:56 AM   #25
cascade9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nec207 View Post
So what happen to KDE3.X are you saying you cannot get KDE3.X and that is why people are now using trinity for people that like KDE3.X ?
KDE 3.X was discontinued. Because it is open soruce, the source was around, so people could 'fork' KDE 3.X into a new project, trinity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nec207 View Post
So you saying that KDE3.X and gnome 2.X was easy to use but the new updates are much harder to use and does not look any where close to windows 98?
Thats not what I was saying at all.

To be more simple- KDE 3.X is gone. There is trinity, but its not being used by any distro as the defualt desktop, and its not even in any of the distros repos either. So if you want to use KDE 3.X/trinity, you will have to download it, then manually install it.

Gnome 2.X will be gone sooner or later as well. If you start using gnome 2.X now, you could end up in the same position as KDE3.X/trinity users- to get the desktop you want, you will have to do a lot more playing with the system to get what you want.

Which is fine if thats what you like, but its not easy for a new linux user to do. Its also possibly more risky, and could make sorting out problems more difficult.
 
Old 04-25-2011, 11:11 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnsfine View Post
Linux command line is more powerful and flexible than Windows command line and more powerful and flexible than any GUI. It is also hard to learn, poorly documented and inconvenient to use.
I partially disagree, especially about the "poorly documented" part. There are lots of beginner-oriented Linux command-line tutorials.

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnsfine View Post
A GUI is a fundamentally better user interface. Most of the time you don't need the extra power and flexibility of command line. It is wonderful that a powerful command line system exists. It is a good idea to learn a moderate amount about it. But using the GUI is still more effective for most purposes.
Better for newbies/graphically-oriented tasks? Definitely. Fundamentally better? No. Unless someone figures out how to make modular GUI applications that work together, rather than having to bundle all the functionality imaginable into every tool.

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Windows integrates the desktop with the file browser, a good idea, not generally copied in Linux.
I thought that most Linux desktops did that already?

Quote:
Integrating file browser and web browser is a bad idea. It is sometimes convenient, but more often confusing and a source of security problems.
I'm not sure if you're talking about Linux or Windows. But in Linux, Konqueror is the only popular application that bundles both. Almost all Linux file managers are just file managers, and almost all Linux browsers are just browsers.

Quote:
In the integrated desktop/file-browser Windows has a good set of right click context menus. Every Linux DE/file-browser I've seen falls well short.
What is missing from the context menus?

Quote:
in Windows an advanced user should know how to add that easily to the context menu. So you need the effort to find the method, but you don't need the further effort to memorize the answer for next time. How to add things to Windows context menus isn't exactly well documented, but it is easy enough to find with a web search. How to do the same in Linux GUIs appears to be more completely hidden from beginning/intermediate users.
Most Linux programs don't have customizable menus, as far as I know.

Last edited by MTK358; 04-25-2011 at 11:14 AM.
 
Old 04-25-2011, 11:13 AM   #27
MTK358
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nec207 View Post
but the new updates are much harder to use and does not look any where close to windows 98?
Not necessarily harder to use, but very different.

If you saw a side-by-side comparison of GNOME 2 and 3, you would never imagine that they are related.
 
Old 04-25-2011, 11:28 AM   #28
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LXDE and IceWM probably don't qualify as easy. The problems tend to arise when you want to change something and find there's no easy way to configure them.

If I were you, I'd download a couple of live CDs: they let you run the OS and software from the CD, which may be slow but enables you to see what you're getting. Try Mint for the Gnome desktop (i.e. GUI) and PCLinuxOS for the KDE desktop. One or the other should take your fancy, and both distros are very easy to use for a beginner.
 
Old 04-25-2011, 11:30 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by MTK358 View Post
Not necessarily harder to use, but very different.

If you saw a side-by-side comparison of GNOME 2 and 3, you would never imagine that they are related.

So both GNOME 2 and Ubuntu unity is not going look any thing like windows or Mac OS X.
 
Old 04-25-2011, 11:33 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nec207 View Post
So both GNOME 2 and Ubuntu unity is not going look any thing like windows or Mac OS X.
I don't know how Mac OS X looks like, but Unity and GNOME 3 look and act very different from any version of Windows.
 
  


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