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Old 07-25-2005, 11:34 PM   #16
kencaz
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Well, GFCI is intended for safety for humans not eq... GFCI outlets have there own breakers capable of determining powerline differentials and as such open a circuit...

Granted, GFCI is not going to help your computer situation, but legally if you replace your 2 prong outlet it needs to be GFCI or you have to re-wire with grounded outlets...

KC
 
Old 08-15-2005, 12:23 PM   #17
jordanib
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Quote:
Originally posted by KimVette
Unless the electrical box itself is grounded, those adapters are worthless and simply breaking off the third prong (DON'T do it) is equally effective in such cases.
I am in an older apartment building. All of the rooms in my apartment -- except mine -- have either all or some outlets grounded.

Does this mean that my box is grounded, and these adapters can be used in my room?

I am a little worried as I would like to have an AC and a bunch of computer equipment running. My super has said that my outlets can't be grounded, but with the wire in the wall of other rooms, I am wondering why that is.

Should I call in an electrician? What are some stop-gap meausures for now? Adapters with surge protectors and UPS?
 
Old 08-15-2005, 09:00 PM   #18
KimVette
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Quote:
Originally posted by kencaz
Well, to be frank... Your landlord has no obligation to replace your existing 2wire with grounded 3wire outlets... That only applies to new construction. However, a 2prong outlet cannot be replaced with a 3prong unless is (GFCI) for safety reasons...

KC
Incorrect. In many (most?) jurisdictions any properties which are rented or sold must be brought up to code if they do not already meet code. But what do I know, I only wired about 100 homes and businesses and did repair work in many more, apprenticing as an electrician while working my way through school. I started when I was 14 or so (still in high school) through age 23 or so, so I guess I'm a but uninformed.
 
Old 08-15-2005, 09:12 PM   #19
kencaz
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Quote:
Originally posted by KimVette
Incorrect. In many (most?) jurisdictions any properties which are rented or sold must be brought up to code if they do not already meet code. But what do I know, I only wired about 100 homes and businesses and did repair work in many more, apprenticing as an electrician while working my way through school. I started when I was 14 or so (still in high school) through age 23 or so, so I guess I'm a but uninformed.
Show me in the NEC that it says that... What your saying is that every construction project has to be rebuilt whenever the NEC updates their codes?... That's rediculous... When you build a home you are required to build it to the existing codes AT THAT TIME! ONLY! You cannot build something on codes that may exist in the future and cannot be required to rebuild everytime they (the codes) are updated... Like I stated... It only applies to new construction... Yes if his Landlord agreed to update his wireing he would have to go with the codes at present... Otherwise he is in no way obligated to re-wire his home... What sort of Electricians have you been working with...?

KC
 
Old 08-15-2005, 09:17 PM   #20
jordanib
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Ok...can we pause this fight to possibly answer my question(s)?

 
Old 08-15-2005, 09:20 PM   #21
KimVette
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The adapters can be used in a pinch, and PROVIDING the utility box itself is grounded, your equipment will be grounded (providing you're using a metal screw on the adapter!!!!!!!!), but it's not the ideal solution. I've already posted how to determine how to test if the outlet is properly wired; follow the same directions to test whether the utility box itself is wired. Basically, touch one probe of your voltmeter to the (metal) screw holding the trim plate to the fixture, and touch the other probe to the "narrow" side of the outlet. If you read between 110V and 120V then the utility box is grounded, and the adapter will provide an adequate ground as a temporary solution and will provide some protection for your equipment.

Also: since when are those adapters illegal to use? They're illegal to use for PERMANENT solutions, but not temporary. Are you aware that it's also illegal to use extension cords longer than 6' for permanent situations? Also, appliances cannot have power cords longer than 6' because otherwise they would be in violation of that law? It's not in the NEC that I can recall;l it's an OSHA regulation. Check OSHA sometime.

Also: you don't want to run a UPS on a circuit with a GFCI; the GFCI can falsely detect "leakage" from a UPS when the UPS is monitoring/testing the circuit or when it switches on/off the battery power, tripping the circuit.

Last edited by KimVette; 08-15-2005 at 09:26 PM.
 
Old 08-15-2005, 09:49 PM   #22
kencaz
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Quote:
Originally posted by jordanib
Ok...can we pause this fight to possibly answer my question(s)?

We are not fighting... It's called a debate, disagreement, etc... I think KimVette is a very intelligent girl and I am just questioning her answer on a subject... This is not fighting... I am only projecting my point. That's what makes forums great, in my opinion.

To answer your previous question. It depends on how your house is wired. Kim is correct that it would be plausable if your grounding was though the conduit, however, it is possible to ground your outlet to an existing through a wire ground, but again if your renting you cannot actually do any work on your home without their consent and if they say you can't well then your stuck... You can't even call an electrician because it's not your house...

KC
 
Old 08-17-2005, 10:59 AM   #23
jordanib
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Ok.

Riddle me this.

I look down at my surge protector today, and the "Grounded" light is on (and the plug tester thing I've got reads it as Correct as well). I am 99.9999% sure that it was not when I first plugged in the surge protector.

What the heck???

Last edited by jordanib; 08-17-2005 at 11:04 AM.
 
Old 08-17-2005, 04:01 PM   #24
kencaz
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Quote:
Originally posted by jordanib
Ok.

Riddle me this.

I look down at my surge protector today, and the "Grounded" light is on (and the plug tester thing I've got reads it as Correct as well). I am 99.9999% sure that it was not when I first plugged in the surge protector.

What the heck???
http://www.acmehowto.com/howto/homem.../grounding.php

KC
 
Old 08-17-2005, 04:54 PM   #25
jordanib
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Quote:
Originally posted by kencaz
http://www.acmehowto.com/howto/homem.../grounding.php

KC
How does this diffeer from http://www.tripplite.com/products/static/ct120.cfm?
 
Old 08-17-2005, 05:05 PM   #26
kencaz
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Both do the same thing...

KC
 
Old 08-17-2005, 05:16 PM   #27
Charred
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According to the Fire Code Inspection class I took a few years back, the answer to the debate is that the Authority Having Jurisdiction has the final say in code matters, (the AHJ can vary from a city council to a representative appointed by the mayor, council, or other governing body), and in most municipalities, apartments do not necessarily need to be brought up to code before they are rented out (again, the AHJ sets the rule), unless they are renovated/reconditioned past a certain percentage. With electrical wiring, the rule is usually "if you expose it, you must upgrade it."

If you decide to drive your own common ground, the rod needs to penetrate at least 6-8 feet into the ground.

And the National Fire Protection Agency IS a non-profit organization.
 
Old 08-17-2005, 06:17 PM   #28
kencaz
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The AHJ is their to interpret the rules set by the NEC, not to set any rules...

KC
 
Old 08-17-2005, 07:40 PM   #29
Charred
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The AHJ IS there to interpret the model code in question, as you say. What's being overlooked is the fact that the model code is just that: a model. Communities use them as guidelines when deciding on their local laws and ordinances, and if the community in question dislikes a particular section or subsection of code, they may well dismiss it out of hand.
Incidentally, there are four different model codes in use throughout the nation: BOCA, UBC, SBCCI, and NEC. This said, the various model code organizations from around the world recently got together and began banging out a new, comprehensive of the International Codes and Standards (under which umbrella term reside the building electrical, plumbing and fire codes), which is suppose to be adopted worldwide, so we may soon see the back of the NEC, BOCA, et. al.
But I digress...
According to Fire Inspection and Code Enforcement, sixth edition, released by the International Fire Service Training Association (IFSTA), pg. 18, paragraph 3
Quote:
Local laws and ordinances, although sometimes based on state laws, are more specific and tailored toward the exact needs of the county, municipality, or district they are adopted by to protect. Typically, states or provinces have legislation in place that enable local jurisdictions to adopt state/provincial regulations. The regulations may be adopted by the local jurisdiction by reference or in the form of enabling acts. To adopt by reference means the that the local jurisdiction will follow the state/provincial laws exactly as drawn. Adopting them in the form of enabling acts gives the local jurisdiction the use of state/provincial laws as their basis but then add or delete regulations or ordinances based on local needs or preferences.
The AHJ initially decided on the laws and ordinances, and has the authority to grant or deny variances, appoint inspectors, and other duties the community may require. Therefore, the AHJ is the deciding factor.

Last edited by Charred; 08-17-2005 at 08:17 PM.
 
Old 08-17-2005, 08:12 PM   #30
kencaz
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I think it would be very difficult to have an International Codes and Standards... It's hard enough for the US to make it's own standards much less trying to have a standard for all countries... All countries have their own way of doing things and I don't see any time soon anyone country agreeing on what is the best way...

At best, at least we have the UL (Underwriters Laboratories) which is more of a product saftety organization but is respected worldwide.

Other then that, I don't see any colaboration of Electrical Standards between countries any time soon...

KC
 
  


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