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Old 12-27-2012, 07:43 AM   #16
ift38375
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NevemTeve View Post
There are many possibilities:
- you can run two (or more) X-sessions on two (or more) monitors
- one X-session can cover two (or more) monitors
- you can run more than one X-sessions with only one monitor (and switch between them with Ctrl+Alt+F6,F7,...)

+1: X protocols allow you to run GUI-programs remotely (eg: you can play with ksokoban or xbill on a Windows PC)


Thanks so much Nevem
 
Old 12-27-2012, 07:45 AM   #17
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The meaning of "multi-user"

Quote:
Originally Posted by ift38375 View Post
Hi Nevem,

Currently we are accessing Linux OS computer through SSH from other computers(Monitor + CPU).
But now i want to use Multiuser functionality of Linux so i am planning to access linux Computer
through monitors + keyboard only. is it practically possible ?
There seems to be some confusion as to what "multi user" really means. When you use SSH you are using the multi-user functionality in Linux. You might be aware that the O/S being used on the client end is largely irrelevant provided that there is a suitable interface for logging onto Linux with ssh (e.g. winXP running PuTTy). That sort of thing is the usual way to access a Linux server. What you want to do is remove the client and access Linux directly in multiple terminals. It might be possible but it would require some specialised hardware. Client/server architecture is more usual and probably cheaper since you can get away with a fairly simple client machine.

Hmmm... what you are proposing reminds me of how Mainframes operate. I wish you luck.

Achim
 
Old 12-27-2012, 08:22 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ift38375 View Post
Hi Experts,

I am new in linux....I am eager to know about Linux functionality
Everyone says that Linux is Multi User Operating system. How ?
Linux structures processes into a tree. Each process has a parent process, and child processes. Each process also has user identification tages - a user identification number (UID) and group identification numbers (GID, and one or more). When Linux boots the first process (init) is process id 1, and is identified as root (UID is 0) and group root (GID, 0).

The init process initializes basic hardware identification, and starts other processes. Some of the processes (ignoring GUI/Desktops for the moment) are terminal login processes (getty/agetty). These also run identified as UID=0,GID=0, though there can be some variations on this. The getty/agetty program initializes terminals (on linux, these are normally tty1 through tty6, and are referred to as either virtual terminals/consoles). getty then starts the login program, which presents a prompt ("login:", or "hostname login:"). This program has the privilege of changing the UID/GID association with itself. When you give a login name with the correct password, it looks up the users identification in the /etc/passwd file, it matches the hashed password entered with the /etc/shadow file, and if correct, will set the users working directory, UID, and GID as specified in the /etc/passwd file, and set additional GIDs based on a search of the /etc/group file for all groups the user is identified as belonging to. After that, it executes (sometimes referred to as "chaining") the users shell program (the command interpreter, also specified in the /etc/passwd file). In this way the init process starts a getty process which chains to login, which chains to the users shell. The user on the terminal is then presented with a command prompt (once the interactive shell program initializes).

Files on disk also have a UID and a GID association (only one GID though). Users may access and file (or program) that allows access by either UID, GID, or other (world access, or "other" which means anyone can access them). Files also have an access mask that defines what the UID (identifying the user), members of the group (GID), or "other" users may do - this access mask permits are read, write, or execute (also used for "search" when used on directories/folders). This mask is used three times - once for UID, GID, and other - making access masks look like rwxrwxrwx for user, group, and other. Only users with the same UID as the file can change the access for all three. Only owners and members of the group can change the second or third, and only owners and group members can change the third.

The users home directory is normally owned by the user (this depends on local policies, but it is the normal case). So files created by the user (by directing the command interpreter to do so)also receive the UID/GID from the command interpreter. This allows the user to create a tree of files (a directory is just a special kind of file - it holds file names and information to access the file).

Quote:
I heard that linux can login only 7 or 12 Maximum user at
same time. it depend on Clrl + Alt + F1 to 12 ??
Am i right ?
Not exactly. And this references your next question too...

Linux can handle hundreds to thousands of users limited mostly by the hardware capability of the computer.

There are normally 6 virtual terminals enabled (1 through 6). This number was picked because there are only 10 (or 12) function keys on a PC with the basic IBM based keyboard. The other 6 exist, but are not enabled. This is due mostly to limitations in how GUI logins are handled.

In addition to these normal 6, you can also enable terminals attached to serial lines (MS COM1: and COM2: devices). There are (well, used to be anyway) many more if you install the hardware for more serial lines. These can also be enabled... There are also network logins (the ssh service uses these) which get a "pty". A pty/pts (depending on where you look) is created when the service (sshd usually, but others can use them) requests a terminal. The pty is "pseudo teletype/terminal", in that it acts like a hardware terminal, but is implemented in software. This emulation allows a process to connect to a "master" which is the control point for the pty, and allows process attached to the slave (the part that acts like a serial line) to work as if it were connected to a real serial line. The sshd process then handles the network protocol (including encryption/decryption) and interacts with the master side of the pseudo terminal, and that causes the slave side to present the data as if it came from a serial line.

There can be as many ptys created as needed. In early Linux systems the ptys were not dynamic, and the system administrator had to define references (a /dev/pty<n> file entry) as they wanted to allow simultaneous use. This was a problem for large systems, as they had hundreds of users (which just might login multiple times)... so improvements added made the creation automatic.

The practical limit on number of users is hardware related - a 32 core system (with 64-128GB of memory) can handle several hundred at once... Unless all of them want to use LOTS of memory at the same time... or use multi-threaded applications... After all 32 cores reach saturation (or memory fills up), things start to slow down.
Quote:
Somebody says linux can handles 65.000 users for 2.4 kernels,
and 4 billion for 2.6 kernels...
i am very confuse in this Topic so please help me ?
That is not exactly the case. What they are referring to is the limitation on the size of the UID/GID numbers. Linux inherited the same limits that early UNIX systems had - they all used a 16 bit number (unsigned usually) to identify users.

Now some of the UIDs are already used - 0, for root, and several were reserved for system use (such as line printer support). These were originally those UIDs below 100. Then 500. Now it is becoming 1000 - it is a nice round number and easy to remember, other than that, it doesn't matter as long as there are enough for the "system use". Some got used for administrator accounts, some for security administrators, or just users designated as system administrators. Some got used to identify "nobody" for the purpose of default values for network activity (such as remote file access - if the server couldn't identify the remote use, it can assign the "nobody" UID/GID set for the purpose of testing file access permissions). Normally there are two such "nobody" UIDs - 99(new) and 65534 (inherited from old NFS - 65534 was -1 when treated as a signed 16 bit number, and that goes back to really old UNIX systems using a signed 16 bit number for UID/GID). Eventually, I expect the 65534 value to be dropped. It only allows for very old systems that just might still be in use.

Linux 2.6 (along with a number of/most UNIX systems) changed to using a 32 bit number. A 16 bit number only has 65535 possible numbers (0 through 65534). A 32 bit number has 4294967296 possible values (0 through 4294967295). So it is unlikely that UIDs for any single system will run out anytime soon. One advantage to the larger numbers is that it allow unofficial "mapping" of groups of users into UID ranges. One place I worked had 3 ranges - local staff 100-1000, local site users 2000-4000, affiliated site (a building or two away) 4001-6000, and everyone else.
 
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Old 12-27-2012, 08:36 AM   #19
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Now, GUI logins...

There are two types of use for GUI - normally it is local only. Linux systems can allow for as many as there are hardware support available (GPUs are common with two video cables, so installing multiple GPUs COULD allow for more, though you don't usually have CPU needed for such support).

A GUI login uses local GPUs for support - that means the user is very close to the system.

Remote users can use GUI elements by passing the X protocol over a ssh connection. This is not quite as fast as a local GPU display.. but it works for most things.

The usual limitation is that things like audio data/CD is NOT tunneled over such connection.

RDP (remote display) can sometimes do that, but limitations on access also cause problems (the audio interface has to be emulated, as does the display) so speed issues can be a problem for videos.

The main advantage ssh has is that the X protocol is designed for network use - and most messages passed are short (video/animation is sometimes slow because these are large packets, and can't make use of local GPU processing). I have done (for testing) cross country video - it works, but is a bit laggy because the internet itself can be a bit slow. Most of the problem however, is caused by the server not exactly being up to the demands, or the local user network isn't (my test wasn't as I had a 455 MBit internet with a 10Gbit local net - research facilities can have some fun toys...).

Current local network should not see problems - the network and systems should be fast enough. At least until the server itself gets overloaded.
 
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Old 12-27-2012, 11:54 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpollard View Post
Now, GUI logins...

There are two types of use for GUI - normally it is local only. Linux systems can allow for as many as there are hardware support available (GPUs are common with two video cables, so installing multiple GPUs COULD allow for more, though you don't usually have CPU needed for such support).

A GUI login uses local GPUs for support - that means the user is very close to the system.

Remote users can use GUI elements by passing the X protocol over a ssh connection. This is not quite as fast as a local GPU display.. but it works for most things.

The usual limitation is that things like audio data/CD is NOT tunneled over such connection.

RDP (remote display) can sometimes do that, but limitations on access also cause problems (the audio interface has to be emulated, as does the display) so speed issues can be a problem for videos.

The main advantage ssh has is that the X protocol is designed for network use - and most messages passed are short (video/animation is sometimes slow because these are large packets, and can't make use of local GPU processing). I have done (for testing) cross country video - it works, but is a bit laggy because the internet itself can be a bit slow. Most of the problem however, is caused by the server not exactly being up to the demands, or the local user network isn't (my test wasn't as I had a 455 MBit internet with a 10Gbit local net - research facilities can have some fun toys...).

Current local network should not see problems - the network and systems should be fast enough. At least until the server itself gets overloaded.

Hi Pollard,

very appreciated information you given to me.........Thanks you
I want to know two more thing:

1. why need of 12 Virtual Terminals Clrl+Alt+F1 to 12 only for single user.
does it make any sense ? explain with one example ?

2.If we talk about Multi-User Functionality then what kind of work can perform by multiple remote users?
Plz give me one example.
 
Old 12-28-2012, 02:35 AM   #21
Wim Sturkenboom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ift38375 View Post
1. why need of 12 Virtual Terminals Clrl+Alt+F1 to 12 only for single user.
does it make any sense ? explain with one example ?
Those terminals are only used by administrators that have physical access to the system.

In one console (e.g. <F1>) the administrator can monitor a logfile (e.g. using the tail command), in another console (e.g. <F2>) the administrator can edit a configuration file and restart the service that is affected by this configuration file. In the third one (e.g. <F3>), the administrator can have a long term process running (e.g. restore a backup). In the above example, the administrator is logged in three times (once for each console).

Note that on servers most maintenance is done remotely; direct access is only required if for some reason remote access is not possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ift38375 View Post
2.If we talk about Multi-User Functionality then what kind of work can perform by multiple remote users?
Plz give me one example.
One user can be logged in and edit source code for a webpage. Another user can be logged in and be editing a document or editing source code for an application. It's possible that this latter user is logged in multiple times, once for reading the document and once for editing the source code.An administrator can be logged in remotely at the same time and restore a backup.
 
Old 12-28-2012, 03:42 AM   #22
ift38375
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wim Sturkenboom View Post
Those terminals are only used by administrators that have physical access to the system.

In one console (e.g. <F1>) the administrator can monitor a logfile (e.g. using the tail command), in another console (e.g. <F2>) the administrator can edit a configuration file and restart the service that is affected by this configuration file. In the third one (e.g. <F3>), the administrator can have a long term process running (e.g. restore a backup). In the above example, the administrator is logged in three times (once for each console).

Note that on servers most maintenance is done remotely; direct access is only required if for some reason remote access is not possible.


One user can be logged in and edit source code for a webpage. Another user can be logged in and be editing a document or editing source code for an application. It's possible that this latter user is logged in multiple times, once for reading the document and once for editing the source code.An administrator can be logged in remotely at the same time and restore a backup.

Hi wim,

Second question(2) is clear to me....

Here i am talking about question(1), as you say that "Those terminals are only used by administrators that have physical access to the system". Can Administrator not do all given task( Tail command, Edit Congig file, Restore backup) in one single Console ?
why need to do all these in seperate Virtual terminals ?

One more thing, Suppose Administrator uses 4 virtual terminal ( Clrl+Alt+F2 to 5) then how many Username (with password) will use Administrator,
mean to say, Administrator will login all four virtual terminal with four different different username or single username for all
four Virtual terminal ?

Last edited by ift38375; 12-28-2012 at 03:44 AM.
 
Old 12-28-2012, 04:01 AM   #23
NevemTeve
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> Can Administrator not do all given task (Tail command, Edit Config file, Restore backup) in one single Console?

It would be less convenient, as the output of different processes would be intermixed. Try this:
Code:
$ while true; do echo Hey; sleep 1; done &
$ vi somefile
> Administrator will login all four virtual terminal with four different different username or single username for all four Virtual terminal?

That's up them him (her), the system won't check whether the users are different or not.
 
Old 12-28-2012, 08:50 AM   #24
jpollard
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ift38375 View Post
Hi Pollard,

very appreciated information you given to me.........Thanks you
I want to know two more thing:

1. why need of 12 Virtual Terminals Clrl+Alt+F1 to 12 only for single user.
does it make any sense ? explain with one example ?
It isn't limited to a single user. One user can login start some work (say a long data analysis...) and lock the terminal. Another user can then switch to a different virtual terminal, login, and do something else.

I have used them (after a base install) to format multiple disks - each one on a different virtual terminal, while also editing mount configurations that will use those disks.

It is limited to 12 mostly for convienence... Most desktop PCs do not even use the 6 that are enabled. Instead, they use a GUI, which uses one of the unused virtual terminals (though this is being fixed by updates to the X server that allow it to use a logged in virtual terminal.

And not all distributions have to have them available (it is a kernel option that is normally enabled - but doesn't have to be).
Quote:
2.If we talk about Multi-User Functionality then what kind of work can perform by multiple remote users?
Plz give me one example.
Where I worked, we had many users - some were doing weather prediction for one area of the world, others would be doing different areas. Others would be validating weather models by analyzing historical data. Still others would performing ocean height analysis (the things done to predict tsunamis for instance).

When it comes to multiple users on desktops, it happens too- an administrator might login remotely to update some software while the user is using it to browse the net, or creating a report, developing documentation. This works as long as the software being updated isn't currently being used by the user at the same time. The admin might just be logging in to check on/for hardware warnings, or network loads as seen by the PC.

It is hard to give one example because there are as many examples as there are users.

Last edited by jpollard; 12-28-2012 at 08:51 AM. Reason: typo
 
Old 12-28-2012, 09:40 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NevemTeve View Post
Perhaps possible, but quite likely very expensive. Especially if it is only for experimenting.

PS: Yet another way to use your linux box remotely: X protocol (eg:http://mobaxterm.mobatek.net/)
I took a look at the web site of MobaXterm and downloaded the program..installed it on winxp : EXCELLENT EXCELLENT !!
Thanks NevemTeve ..You are a hero..
 
Old 12-28-2012, 10:31 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ift38375 View Post
One more thing, Suppose Administrator uses 4 virtual terminal ( Clrl+Alt+F2 to 5) then how many Username (with password) will use Administrator,
mean to say, Administrator will login all four virtual terminal with four different different username or single username for all
four Virtual terminal ?
Whatever is more convenient. You could use one username for all virtual terminals. You could use a different username for each. Or anywhere in between.

Typically, one would use two usernames and set some visible GUI setting difference between the two to avoid confusion.
The reason to do that is when you want to switch back and forth between
1) admin tasks requiring special privileges
2) reading emails and web pages relevant to those tasks
To maintain proper security, you don't want to read emails and web pages while logged in with a privileged username. But what you are reading might be relevant to the privileged activity, so you want to switch easily between non privileged reading of that info and privileged actions based on what you read.
So an admin typically needs two different usernames and may have both logged in at once. Virtual terminals is just one of the ways that an admin can use multiple simultaneous but separate log ins.
 
Old 12-28-2012, 10:40 AM   #27
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I'm not sure whether this adds anything to the discussion but I have asked about, and looked around for examples of, having tty7 on one monitor and tty8 on the one next to it. As far as I can tell this cannot be done with either one or two graphics cards. Of vourse, for two users to use this setup you'd need to have two sets of keyboards and mice (if you used X on both).
At a guess, to gain the type of functionaluty talked about (multiple users on the same physical PCs CPU[s] you'd have to use serial terminals on the COM ports and that would probably cost more that using cheap PCS for each user and give you less performance.
 
Old 12-28-2012, 10:49 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ift38375 View Post
Currently we are accessing Linux OS computer through SSH from other computers(Monitor + CPU).
But now i want to use Multiuser functionality of Linux so i am planning to access linux Computer
through monitors + keyboard only. is it practically possible ?
Accessing Linux through SSH is Multiuser.

Someone already gave you info on Linux "multi seat", which is the name used when multi user is accomplished via multiple locally connected displays. As you can see, that is fairly tricky to set up.

But what is your goal? What about SSH is the problem?

SSH gives each remote user only a terminal session, not full GUI. If that is the problem, there are many solutions.

One common solution is to have an X "server" on each computer where the user sits, while the applications running on the shared system use X "clients". Notice the naming of "server" vs. "client" in X is reversed from the common usage.

Another common (and sometimes simpler) solution is to have a VNC "client" running on each computer where the user sits. On the shared computer, for each user, you run a program that combines a VNC "server" with an X "server". The actual applications run on the shared system as X "clients" the same as in the pure X setup. Notice VNC uses the naming conventions for the "client" vs. "server" ends that are more intuitive (and the reverse of the way X names the two ends).

Last edited by johnsfine; 12-28-2012 at 10:50 AM.
 
Old 12-31-2012, 06:13 AM   #29
ift38375
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Hi All Experts,

i have two questions:

1. If Linux providing Virtual Terminals ( Text ( 1-6) + GUI (7-12) ) then why we need to "SU" command ? How "SU" command is differ from "SUDO" command. Plz give me simple example so that i can easily understand at once ?

2. If we talk about Drives or Partitions in Windows OS, then it is very simple to recognize drives like C, D, E, F.But Linux is so difficult to understand that where i will save my Work and documents Like Music, Word/Excel/Pdf file, many Stuffs. I have installed Redhat Linux ws 4 in my Computer and it is Looks like in this manner:

At desktop, there are three icons Like 1. My computer 2. Root 3.Trash
After click on " My Computer", it is showing 1. Floppy 2. Network 3. File System
After Click on "File System", it is showing some folders like 1. etc 2. bin 3. usr 3. lost-Found 4.... 5.... 6... so many

How can i create Partition in GUI mode so that i can keep Linux OS in First drive and Music in Second Drive and Documents in third Drive. ?
 
Old 12-31-2012, 06:46 AM   #30
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> 1. If Linux providing Virtual Terminals ( Text ( 1-6) + GUI (7-12) ) then why we need to "SU" command ?

These are entirely different things. You can use 'su' both locally (/dev/ttyN) or remotely (telnet, ssh, rlogin etc). Often (for security reasons) you cannot even login as root, only login as ordinary user then 'su' to root.

> How "SU" command is differ from "SUDO" command.

Originally sudo was meant to be a safer option to delegate admin functions to users, as file /etc/sudoers controlled which user was allowed which commands. Nowadays some systems allow commands like 'sudo bash' which is equivalent to 'su' -- only you don't have to know the root password.

> Plz give me simple example so that i can easily understand at once ?

Be more precise: example for what?
 
  


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