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Old 11-18-2003, 04:46 PM   #16
Tinkster
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Quote:
Originally posted by Charlie Spencer
Seneca, is bash programming anything like DOS batch files? Thanks.
Way beyond that mate :)

I mean, the program structures, variables and
loops do have similarities, but ...

You get the FULL throttle of Linux, pipes and all...
Basically, anything you can possibly think of off
doing in a shell is possible in a bash-script.

Cheers,
Tink
 
Old 11-18-2003, 04:55 PM   #17
Charlie Spencer
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I thought bash was another term for the command line interface. Again I come seeking enlightenment.

Incidentally, anything you can possibly think of doing in the MS Windows GUI is possible from a DOS batch file. The trick is finding out the appropriate commands. Documentation for the MS command prompt nowadays ain't what it was for MS-DOS 6.2!
 
Old 11-18-2003, 04:56 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by Charlie Spencer
[B]Using the command line just feels like a step backwards to me. I've gotten spoiled just having to point and click.
What if you need to change something on 10, 100 or
1000 machines? :) I rather sit at my notebook, think
for 10 minutes, make a shell script that does all that
for me while I go brew my coffee instead of doing
sneaker-ichanges :} Particularly in an administrative
role the command-line absolutely blows away any
GUI I can think of ;)

Quote:
Where do people get the time to keep rebuilding their box from scratch, much comparing and contrasting features? Maybe I lack the open source mindset; I'd rather spend my time working WITH the computer than working ON it.
You're making assumptions here :) ... I for once
work WITH this computer (and the other two
on my home-network) and the kids use theirs,
too, rather than mucking around...

My workstation (notebook) hasn't undergone
a re-install in just about a year (which is when
I bought it and wiped XP after 2 days of trying),
and what would be considered maintenance
is non-exisiting ...

As for windows and testing ... if your company
is half-way decent in the administration of the
machines I'd hope that they don't roll-out new
versions of MickySoft products without serious
testing... and I'd also assume that the move from
NT to 2000 and on to XP took some re-learning.

I certainly didn't feel "at home" in 95 after 3.11,
or in 2000 after 98....

Cheers,
Tink
 
Old 11-18-2003, 05:45 PM   #19
Charlie Spencer
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"Maybe I lack the open source mindset; I'd rather spend my time working WITH the computer than working ON it."

I hated that sentence as soon as posted it. It's condescending. Usually I take several minutes before posting, rearranging sentences and eliminating phrases. That one got by me, and I humbly apologize if I have offended. A condescending attitude is not a good one for someone seeking assistance.

Tink, we're not discussing desktop OS's at this stage (165+ at this facility; several hundred company wide), just servers. It will probably be a couple of years minimum before we see it on users' desktops (if ever; that's not my decision). We almost never replace the OS on a desktop unless the user has an app that requires it. That's why 35% of my users are still running 95. On those rare occasions when we do mass changes, we add it into their login script (with a GUI text editor) or use SMS. (That's Microsoft's Systems Management Server. In the last few days I've seen that abbreviation used in another context, but I don't know what it is.)

While we don't roll out anything new, Microsoft or otherwise, without testing, we don't even test unless the new version offers features we actively need. That's why we're still on Office 97.

Yes, there was re-learning involved between NT and 2000, and again between 2000 and XP. But I wasn't offered seven different flavors of XP and told "Try them all to see which one you like, then repeat for six flavors of browser, four of GUI, five of file manager, etc." That seems to be the stock response newbies get when we ask for a hard opinion on most options. Some people enjoy having a wide range of choices. For others, it's confusing; we're initally willing to settle for "good enough". That's why I'm settling for the "first-found, first-installed" approach (and why I drive a car until it dies).

I'm not sure where people get the time to do something as time-consuming as test loading OS's, but it seems we newbies are expected to do it a lot. (Admit it, it's a hazing ritual, right? You guru's have a betting pool going on how many time you can talk a guy into switching distros.) I consider loading an OS as a major operation, the computer equivalent of a brain transplant. Maybe there's some part of the distro testing process I don't understand yet, some step that makes it easier than I imagine.

If I'm at a shell prompt / terminal window (Look! I've been reading and learning new terms!), is there any apparent difference between distributions?
 
Old 11-18-2003, 06:07 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Charlie Spencer
Tink, we're not discussing desktop OS's at this stage (165+ at this facility; several hundred company wide), just servers.
I wasn't either ;) ... I was responsible for about
6000 servers at a time, and no, none of them
were running WinDOHs... had I been talking
about clients we had been looking at about
30000.

Quote:
... use SMS. (That's Microsoft's Systems Management Server. In the last few days I've seen that abbreviation used in another context, but I don't know what it is.)
Short Message Service, and it's been around for
longer than the MS term :} .. and I've seen SMS
(the MS thing) in progress ... I wasn't overly impressed.

Quote:
While we don't roll out anything new, Microsoft or otherwise, without testing, we don't even test unless the new version offers features we actively need. That's why we're still on Office 97.
Congratulations ... how do you guys manage
to exchange douments with people who use
a brand-new version of Office?

[quote]
Yes, there was re-learning involved between NT and 2000, and again between 2000 and XP. But I wasn't offered seven different flavors of XP and told "Try them all to see which one you like, then repeat for six flavors of browser, four of GUI, five of file manager, etc." That seems to be the stock response newbies get when we ask for a hard opinion on most options. Some people enjoy having a wide range of choices. For others, it's confusing; we're initally willing to settle for "good enough". That's why I'm settling for the "first-found, first-installed" approach (and why I drive a car until it dies). [quote]
All I can say in this context: stick with
what you have until you discover it
doesn't do what you want. At the end
of the day there's just TWO big families
of Linux-distros, that's those with SysV
and those with BSD style startup-scripts,
and even that shouldn't be impossible to
change over :} As long as it has a linux
kernel for the CPU architecture of your
choice you can pretty much change
whatever you want (with varying effort,
of course), most of it on the fly. If I wasn't
a fanatic power-saver I'd say that my
server wasn't booted since the last kernel
upgrade, and I could say that without
lying.

Quote:
I'm not sure where people get the time to do something as time-consuming as test loading OS's, but it seems we newbies are expected to do it a lot. (Admit it, it's a hazing ritual, right? You guru's have a betting pool going on how many time you can talk a guy into switching distros.) I consider loading an OS as a major operation, the computer equivalent of a brain transplant. Maybe there's some part of the distro testing process I don't understand yet, some step that makes it easier than I imagine.
I must have missed something :} Where is
the guy who takes the bets?! :D I don't really
expect anyone to try several distros. I will,
however, if people have problems with their
distro that are specific to their distro point
out that there are alternatives ;) ... and I do
the same to people who have problems with
windows...


Quote:
If I'm at a shell prompt / terminal window (Look! I've been reading and learning new terms!), is there any apparent difference between distributions?
Good man. And no ... not really. There may be gimmicks
like colour highlighting of certain file-types enabled
in one distro, and the prompt looks different in the
next, but again, at the end of the day you're most
likely using bash 2.05 or a tcshell ... the vast majority
of commands will be the same everywhere, sometimes
aliased to a more harmless version (some distros will
alias rm=rm -i to prevent accidental deletion of files).

The thing is, the guts are ALWAYS the same. But the
person who is in charge of one distro can make them
look/act slightly different...

The greatest advantage of this diversity that seems to
scare/puzzle you is the fact that it makes it pretty darn
impossible to write malicious code that will affect all
Linux-distro's :}


Cheers,
Tink
 
Old 11-18-2003, 07:49 PM   #21
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I know it's a bit off-topic, but guys, what a wonderfull discussion, I really enjoyed reading your posts, they make sense, not the usual "Penguins vs MicroMice"discussion which really makes me tired. As if Linux was invented to be better than M$... (It can be on certain area's :-) but let's not get into it) ...and all those "I don't like M$ so I use Linux threads"!

I can very well understand your concerns as to start with Linux, in the beginning as mentioned before, understanding how things work or why there are so many alternatives. I for myself am very familiar with M$ products, but still was attracted by the mysteries and powers a linux system has; I heard people talking about it but never really understood, not that I do now, but hey at least I am finding my way trough all the vast choices. What did the trick for me to use Linux apart from the business benefits, was that I for myself had to return to pure computing (knowing basic stuff from hardware you sometimes when using windoos disregard). the shell made me feel nostalgic; Forget the Windoos-way, in a sense don't compare it with windows, and learn a new way, be open! At first the road is longer, but than you'll discover that there are so many shortcuts (not the windoos ones ;-))... however whatever happens; be persistent, and read, read and ask alot - there is always a creative solution to your challenge (instead of issue).

on topic a bit. For server stuff definetely go for the non graphical way, the shell is very powerfull indeed;almost identical on every distro, so even if for some obscure reason you need to change distro, the shell will always be able to make you feel at home.
 
Old 11-19-2003, 05:49 AM   #22
seneca
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Once more, I'd like to add a few notes although I'm not good at Linux networking:
  • As far as I know, Linux on the server is rather straighforward. For a webserver you install apache, PHP, and a MySQL database and that's it. For a mail server, probably most people would use PostFix together with SpamAssassin and a VirusTool for your Windows boxes. For a print server. it's probably just CUPS. For other needs there might be similar combinations out there. Maybe one of the server gurus here is able to extend the list. As far as I know, all of them can be administrated by WebMin.
  • Using the command line, Linux is also very straightforward. Usually you'd use bash as a shell (and, yes, it's programming is roughly comparable to DOS batch scripts.) and the GNU tools (like awk, sed, ...) for additional functionality and that's it.
  • Since you said you'll use the default installation of RedHat which is GNOME, all you'll additionaly need are some apps: OpenOffice is probably the best choice for offfice stuff, then there's Evolution for Mail and PIM, Galeon as a browser (the GNOME default browser is Epiphany but it's bookmark system is somewhat unusual), Rhythmbox for radio and music listing during your work! Small apps for editing and archives should already be installed, called gedit and file-roller. Well, and that's it or did I miss something important?
  • For easy software installation, use apt-get at the command-line. If you like a GUI for it, use Synaptic and you're done.
  • There are several papers available about migration from Windows to Linux, one is available here. For more documents, try "+Linux +Migration +Guide" in google. A Windows/Linux replacements list might also be helpful.
Maybe this will reduce the complexity of your task a little bit.

BTW, the usual recommandation to test different apps is due to the different preferences of the Linux community. Any recommandation usually ends in a flame war, and my posting will probably also start one. There is simply no objective answer to "Which is better"-Questions.

Additionally, these different preferences is what brings you the software at a low price since it is somewhat equivalent to fitness in evolution. It drives the OpenSource development forward.

Once again: If you find out one of the above apps doesn't do what you need, ask here for an alternative but state clearly what you need. And in contrast to Windows 95 and 98, installing and de-installing lots of software doesn't harm the box, so you can savely test each software.

It's a whole new universe to discover. Have fun.
 
Old 11-19-2003, 07:42 AM   #23
Charlie Spencer
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Tinkster, we support the railroad and mass transit industry. Here in the U.S. it's a very traditional field; a large percentage of our customer interaction is still via fax. Our customers often specify what software they require us to use (sometimes forcing an OS upgrade), but we haven't had any conflicts with Office. Either the newer versions don't have trouble reading the 97 file, or fewer people have upgraded Office than Bill Gates would like. I suspect the latter.

The diversity doesn't scare or puzzle as much as frustrate. After a good night's sleep, I don't think the number of options for Linux apps is much different from Windows apps. For Windows apps I can consult PC Magazine, PC World, or other WIntel magazines. They provide me comparisons of features, costs, ease of installation and use, etc. That makes it easy for me to narrow my choices down to two or maybe three to test. Would someone recommend a couple of Linux magazines that do similar software testing / reviews?

BlackCell, I agree. An OS is as good as the apps you can run; it's not a religion. I'm not sure why some people feel forced to choose; run Linux or Windows as the app requires. That's why the gods gave us dual-boot, KVM switches, and home networks.

Seneca (in the southeastern US, the Seneca are a Native American tribe), it's a shame people can't express a justified preference without being flamed, but I guess that doesn't make this community different from any other. I saw a thread once that deteriorated into two guys arguing over the use of slotted vs. Phillips head screws to close the case.

I've beat this thread to death and gone way off topic. I've answered my GUI question; would somebody recommend a good Samba site / discussion? I can't tell if I've got this box on my NT network correctly. "They rebuilt me, but they'd never seen a human being before. They didn't know what I was supposed to look like." Thanks.
 
  


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