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MrMeeSeeks 08-28-2017 11:23 AM

desktop environments, especially KDE - without an entire distribution
 
Hey there.

So I thought I might take a look at a bunch of desktop environments before deciding on one for my planned debian-system.
Now, I am currently using xubuntu, so I've got xfce and xubuntu-desktop installed, and I wanted to install kde - however, google provided only the following answers: install kubuntu-desktop, which I don't want to, install kde-full which simply does not exist (anymore) in the dpkg and which I couldn't find anywhere either, or install a distribution using kde - which is what even the kde-homepage seems to provide as its only advice, and which I don't want to do.

So, is there some "standalone" kde-suite?

Best regards

jsbjsb001 08-28-2017 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrMeeSeeks (Post 5752912)
Hey there.

So I thought I might take a look at a bunch of desktop environments before deciding on one for my planned debian-system.
Now, I am currently using xubuntu, so I've got xfce and xubuntu-desktop installed, and I wanted to install kde - however, google only provided only the following answers: install kubuntu-desktop, which I don't want to, install kde-full which simply does not exist (anymore) in the dpkg and which I couldn't find anywhere either, or install a distribution using kde - which is what even the kde-homepage seems to provide as its only advice, and which I don't want to do.

So, is there some "standalone" kde-suite?

Best regards

If your asking what I'm thinking you are... don't think so, at least, if there is, I don't know of it. Kubuntu is basically Ubuntu with KDE desktop environment instead of the Unity graphical environment. I use KDE myself, you could try something like openSUSE or PCLinuxOS (among others) instead.

Wiki page for Kubuntu is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kubuntu

Hope this helps.

MrMeeSeeks 08-28-2017 11:37 AM

Well, I appreciate your answer, but still: installing an entire distribution or a distribution-specific kde-package is not what I had in mind.
As far as I can see, there are core or base-packages for xfce and GNOME, so my general idea at least as of now does not seem entirely moronic to me. But now specifically with kde - there really is no "non-distribution" meta-package? So I would have to completely build it from the plethora of source-packages dpkg turns up?
Because, any and all build-how-tos I could find so far are not up to date as it seems; at least they reference packages not available via dpkg or to be found for download elsewhere.

jsbjsb001 08-28-2017 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrMeeSeeks (Post 5752919)
Well, I appreciate your answer, but still: installing an entire distribution or a distribution-specific kde-package is not what I had in mind.
As far as I can see, there are core or base-packages for xfce and GNOME, so my general idea at least as of now does not seem entirely moronic to me. But now specifically with kde - there really is no "non-distribution" meta-package? So I would have to completely build it from the plethora of source-packages dpkg turns up?

I'm not real clear on what your asking here?

If once again it's what I'm thinking... the desktop environment is technically speaking not a part of the operating system in the Linux/UNIX world, in other words, Linux does not care if you have any graphical environment installed or not. So, you still need the underlying system, to run any graphical environment.

MrMeeSeeks 08-28-2017 11:49 AM

Yes.
So why should I install SuSE, when I have a kernel and all my stuff already, just to look at the kde window manager and stuff?
I mean, I appreciate there probably is little difference between a kde desktop environment and kubuntu minus the kernel and general shell, which might be quite exactly what kubuntu-desktop is - but I still feel like there should be packages that allow installing kde on a running system that are not something like distribution-specific builds. Like - as it seems - there are with xfce and GNOME.

I hope I could clarify what I'm asking, because it seems like you assume I want something quite different from what I'm aiming at.

What I actually want is a X login screen that would let me choose whether I want to start an xfce or a kde session - much like now it lets me choose between an xfce and an xubuntu-desktop session - only that I don't particularly would like to resort to kubuntu-desktop, or any other "customization" of kde.

jsbjsb001 08-28-2017 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrMeeSeeks (Post 5752923)
Yes.
So why should I install SuSE, when I have a kernel and all my stuff already, just to look at the kde window manager and stuff?
I mean, I appreciate there probably is little difference between a kde desktop environment and kubuntu minus the kernel and general shell, which might be quite exactly what kubuntu-desktop is - but I still feel like there should be packages that allow installing kde on a running system that are not something like distribution-specific builds. Like - as it seems - there are with xfce and GNOME.

I hope I could clarify what I'm asking, because it seems like you assume I want something quite different from what I'm aiming at.

Well, I know you can install KDE on at least some of the other distro's, that may use a different desktop environment by default, openSUSE for one offers you a choice when you run it's installation program and you can install KDE afterwards as well, if you installed a different one, at the time of install.

You would need to install the necessary packages though your package manager.

MrMeeSeeks 08-28-2017 12:00 PM

Yes!
Now that is basically my question - are there distribution-independent meta-packages - kde seems to be a framework consisting of around at least a hundred packages as it seems - or at least build-tutorials that would explain how to build kde for a given installation from the available packages.
Doesn't seem like it. I appreciate your willingness to help very much though. I guess I'll just have a look at GNOME and MATE and so on which seem to provide what MATE calls "vanilla" packages.

Thanks a lot again though.

kilgoretrout 08-28-2017 12:05 PM

Quote:

so I've got xfce and xubuntu-desktop installed, and I wanted to install kde - however, google provided only the following answers: install kubuntu-desktop, which I don't want to
Why not??? That's the recommended method for installing the kde desktop environment on an existing *buntu installation which doesn't have kde already installed:

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InstallingKDE

Per the above link, could also try:
Code:

sudo apt-get install kde-plasma-desktop

IsaacKuo 08-28-2017 12:21 PM

Why do you not want to install kubuntu-desktop?

Anyway, Debian doesn't play Ubuntu style games with "different" distributions for each desktop environment. They're all just packages in Debian. The one for Debian's default KDE install is "task-kde-desktop". There are also minimal (kde-plasma-desktop) and full (kde-full) metapackages in Debian.

Like it or not, Debian does put its own tweaks into each desktop environment available also. So, if you really want to see how things would be for your future Debian system, the best way is to try it out with Debian. You can install onto a USB drive or an extra partition (I'd recommend 8+ GB, depending on how much stuff you're planning on trying out).

MrMeeSeeks 08-28-2017 12:58 PM

Well, fair enough.
Since at this point this really does not serve anything in particular but a strange whim of mine I'll just get on with it, use kubuntu-desktop and try to reach a decision for my debian already.

IsaacKuo 08-28-2017 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrMeeSeeks (Post 5752946)
Well, fair enough.

Speaking of Debian-USB-sticks: I was thinking of following 4.3.3 here, because it seemed the most sensible approach for a 16GB stick, but I'm confused as to how this:

Those instructions are for putting the Debian installer on a USB stick. You can then boot up that installer, just like the CD, and use it to install Debian on something else (like an internal hard drive or a different USB stick).

I have never followed those directions. I have a perfectly working CD writer and a ton of CDR's left over from the last time I bought a batch. So I still just burn the small netinst Debian installer to CD and use that.

The Debian installer sees any plugged in USB drives just like any internal drives. Installing onto a USB drive is done the same way as installing onto an internal drive. Personally, I always choose manual partitioning and I create just one ext4 partition on the desired drive for "/". I do not create a swap partition (the installer gives a warning to make sure I really want to NOT create any swap partition).

MrMeeSeeks 08-28-2017 02:19 PM

Well I had trouble finding the files they were referring to.
I figured if I did it this way I might actually get the installer to offer a bunch of images to install from and not run into this problem:

Quote:

Note that, although convenient, this method does have one major disadvantage: the logical size of the device will be limited to 1 GB, even if the capacity of the USB stick is larger. You will need to repartition the USB stick and create new file systems to get its full capacity back if you ever want to use it for some different purpose.

suicidaleggroll 08-28-2017 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrMeeSeeks (Post 5752912)
Now, I am currently using xubuntu, so I've got xfce and xubuntu-desktop installed, and I wanted to install kde - however, google provided only the following answers: install kubuntu-desktop, which I don't want to

The kubuntu-desktop group won't install an entire new distribution, it will only install those packages required by kubuntu-desktop that are not already installed on your xubuntu-desktop. In other words, kde.

DVOM 08-28-2017 04:37 PM

What I use to install a minimal xfce4 desktop is:

Code:

sudo apt-get install --no-install-recommends xfce4
Depending on the distro I'm working with that adds approx 32MB to 80MB.

So I experimented with "kde-full" which would have added approx 1500MB

"kde-standard" would add approx 950MB

And "kde-plasma-desktop" adds about 650MB

273 08-28-2017 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IsaacKuo (Post 5752937)
Why do you not want to install kubuntu-desktop?

Anyway, Debian doesn't play Ubuntu style games with "different" distributions for each desktop environment. They're all just packages in Debian. The one for Debian's default KDE install is "task-kde-desktop". There are also minimal (kde-plasma-desktop) and full (kde-full) metapackages in Debian.

Like it or not, Debian does put its own tweaks into each desktop environment available also. So, if you really want to see how things would be for your future Debian system, the best way is to try it out with Debian. You can install onto a USB drive or an extra partition (I'd recommend 8+ GB, depending on how much stuff you're planning on trying out).

To expand on this, to install a desktop environment in Debian one installs a meta-package for that DE (in this case kde-plasma-desktop) then it becomes available at the graphical login screen.
The reason your original question was confusing is that different distributions will name the desktop environment packages differently though, generally, they will behave in the same way.
It appears, unless I'm the one misreading things here, that you are confusing KDE the desktop environment with Kubuntu the Linux Distribution.
Personally, on my Debian installs I use XFCE but almost always have at least Gnome installed also and, generally, KDE and another one or two DEs depending on the system.

DVOM 08-28-2017 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrMeeSeeks (Post 5752912)
kde-full which simply does not exist (anymore) in the dpkg

Best regards

I booted to xubuntu 17.10 and "kde-full", "kde-standard" and "kde-plasma-desktop" were not available.
However, in both antiX 17 and in debian 9 all three are offered.

!!! 08-29-2017 01:09 AM

Great Thread, esp for my learning. Thanks Mr... A few interesting links I discovered:
DistroWatch.com/Debian lists many DE options (Xubu 1); bbq 76! Wayland=future?

AwesomeMachine 08-29-2017 05:55 AM

I think you install the kde package. Then, install a few complicated kde apps, like gwenview. That should drag in everything you need for kde.

edit, I can't find the kde package, but kde-full is in debian testing.

MrMeeSeeks 08-29-2017 11:36 AM

Quote:

I booted to xubuntu 17.10 and "kde-full", "kde-standard" and "kde-plasma-desktop" were not available.
However, in both antiX 17 and in debian 9 all three are offered.
Wow this is really confusing, or maybe I'd rather say interesting: how exactly does this happen? I thought the package management systems would be the same. Is it just the repositories that are queried? Or are there distribution-specific changes to the actual dpkg client or apt frontend?

Quote:

It appears, unless I'm the one misreading things here, that you are confusing KDE the desktop environment with Kubuntu the Linux Distribution.
Not really. I would say I was unsure about how far-reaching distribution-specific changes to "base"-DE-frameworks are in packages such as kubuntu-desktop. However, this
Quote:

The kubuntu-desktop group won't install an entire new distribution, it will only install those packages required by kubuntu-desktop that are not already installed on your xubuntu-desktop. In other words, kde.
seems to suggest that I overestimated by far the relevance of my concerns.
Just to get this straight, because this keeps popping up: I am well aware that an OS is far more than a DE, I am well aware that distributions ship more than the kernel and shell plus a DE, my concern was the assumption, that there ought to be some kind of a "pure" kde shipping, like there seem to be "vanilla" versions of xfce, MATE, GNOME etc.
Those might entail some additional configuring to do and all, but that's something I was kind of interested in doing anyways, since I am slowly reaching for a more thorough understanding of X and GUIs anyways, and how they live in the general shell environment. Ah whatever, thanks a lot folks, and I guess this topic's solved so far.
Quote:

Great Thread, esp for my learning. Thanks Mr... A few interesting links I discovered:
DistroWatch.com/Debian lists many DE options (Xubu 1); bbq 76! Wayland=future?
Happy you could draw something from this.

IsaacKuo 08-29-2017 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrMeeSeeks (Post 5753366)
Wow this is really confusing, or maybe I'd rather say interesting: how exactly does this happen? I thought the package management systems would be the same. Is it just the repositories that are queried? Or are there distribution-specific changes to the actual dpkg client or apt frontend?

It happened back in 2004 when Mark Shuttleworth decided to fork (sort of) Ubuntu from Debian rather than simply using Debian's vast software repositories just like every other Debian based distribution up to that point. This has made a lot of people upset and some are still not over it (like myself).

The story's really complicated; the bottom line is that there's a lot of duplicated effort and a lot of weird diversions that Ubuntu has led down which had ultimately proved to be wasteful dead ends. And the "Ubuntu way" had for a very long time been to concentrate on just one desktop environment and simply prune away everything else...which lead to a bunch of Ubuntu based distributions with other desktop environments, and this stuff eventually got folded into the main Ubuntu repositories...bleh bleh bleh...look, it's a mess. And a really wasteful pointless mess because ultimately Shuttleworth lost his war to destroy Debian and replace it with Ubuntu maybe a decade ago.

So what do we have now? We have two big Debian-like worlds. The Debian world with its vast Debian software repository and the Ubuntu world with its own software repositories. These worlds have been close enough that some Debian/Ubuntu based distributions have actually switched from one to the other (and back!). At this point in time, it seems Ubuntu has shed most of its weird stuff.

But basically, if this stuff has you confused and confounded, then maybe it's time you jumped ship on Ubuntu in favor of Debian (or something else). Personally, I find Ubuntu perfectly usable now that it has lost most of its weird stuff. But then, I use XFCE4 and it's pretty much just the same on anything.

frankbell 08-29-2017 08:29 PM

Just to add, you can have multiple desktops installed to a single Linux install and switch amongst them. Installing and removing a desktop environment or Window Manager will not harm your data or the underlying install in any way.

Slackware comes with eight desktop environments/window managers out of the box. Debian currently gives you the option of installing one or multiple environments out of the box--I have MATE and KDE Plasma on my Debian Sid (which started as Debian 9).

Mageia and OpenSUSE have integrated their distros with KDE a bit more tightly than have most distros, but you can still run other DEs/WMs on them. I have KDE and Enlightenment both on my Mageia Box.

pressman57 08-30-2017 07:29 PM

I've run multiple DEs several times. The only downside is conflicting config files causing weird shit to happen.


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