About to start Linux - Recommendations on 2 variants of Linux. Help please!
 

Hi to all.

From reading the stickies I _think_ this is place to post! Sorry, my first post. It's a bit long but I want to be clear.

I have need of advice regarding distributions of Linux. No time for a flame war here!

I plan to move out to South East Asia – my wife is a local there – next year. I have a language to learn, IT skills to catch up with (sorry, this is a sudden change of plan) and I have to get into Linux *fast.* Where we plan to go Linux is much bigger than Windows in many ways cause its, er, cheap. I gotta have Linux on my Resume. “And fast, Uhura, fast.” Now, there are the odd couple of Linux freaks who can help at work but… in my experience, such tend to be so enthusiastic about their set up they wish to impose it on me. So when I say, “What I want to do is…” rather than “Well, how you do it is…” I get, “You want to do this instead!”
Thanks guys.
Sigh.
I swear, I asked on guy about a Linux wordprocessor at work and was being pushed towards and entire document management system. No, I know what I what, don’t tell me what you want.

I have high hopes of better help here! :-)
So here is my plan.

I have new Windows 7 laptop that will remain so. I am not a fan of Windows 7 but I need that in place.

So I have two other PC’s to put Linux on.

The first is a 5 year old 1.7GB Athlon XP shuttle box – which has been excellent – with 60GB HD in two partitions and 256MB RAM. This one I want to run as a basic multi-media machine to play MP’s, MOV files and basic wordprocessing. Frankly, I want to have a basic desktop to play with the OS and get ‘under the skin’ of Linux. I want a minimum fuss, compatible install so I can get a desktop and CLI and multimedia quickly. Then I can play. I do NOT mind using an older rendering of Linux to get things done. I do not need state of the art Linux here. I need reliability, MP3 playing and desktop customisation.

Oh, please tell me you can change the screen colours in the GUI!! I use secondary colours for Windows backgrounds as it is much easier on the eyes for me than black on white. (And one of the many reasons I spit on Mac’s!) I dread paper white for everything!

The second machine I wish to get up and running is a P75 with 500MB HD and 8MB RAM (though I can get EDO RAM easily enough but I do not want to go beyond 32MB as I am emulating hardware in use in the East.) Linux on ancient machines is not stupid out where a PC costs five years wages. Having skills in pushing old machines will be of help to me in the East. [I also enjoy resurrecting old boxes that people tend to abandon. So it will be fun as a project. So no-one say “Why do you want to do that?!”] Please also note that I am looking to emulate the situation in a developing country where cost is an issue regarding computing so want to find freeware that provides solutions on all manner of hardware. Old, unsupported apps are of interest to me.

I could do with an older version that will run on such a box and run some office software so I can support such HD/SW out there. Once I have cut my teeth on the Athlon I hope to be able to roll up my sleeves and CLI up an older box. The first I want fast install, least hassle and the chance to play MP3’s while doing a bit of typing as I learn a whole new language. Then I want roll my sleeves and do battle with an old box to know Linux closer and be ready to support the OS on older HD out there! As I say, boxes we throw away in three years where I am going – I shall not say – they hang onto for ten. I want to be ready for that.

I have some limited experience with the Unix command line but that was decades ago when x-Windows was being displayed on servers in largely demo form only! The internet was first being mentioned in Universities. But I remember ls, chmod, rm, grep and the like. I am not a Windows baby and don’t need to do everything by point and click. I drop to CMD regularly at work.

The other thing is… I do need a wordprocessor for both machines. I tried Open Office under Windows. Where it did not utterly trash the operating system, it rarely read RTF, saved DOC files with random corruptions and what it did to tables could not be undone! Others confirmed my experience. But those running it under Linux swore by it. So, I am suspicious of Open Office unless I can be convinced it works under Linux. In fact I fear for office apps under Linux after this experience. Help! I can use version 1 of anything if it works. I hate bells and whistles in Wordprocessors. One WP for the XP machine, one for the P75. Any recommendations?

These machines will NOT be networking at this time nor going online. They will be firmly offline until I ‘get’ Linux and where I have room to connect. I need to know the OS before I worry about comms.

You advise! I’m in your hands. I hope I am clear and I can participate in these forums more fully as I get ‘techie.’ Many thanks. I’m keen. This should be fun! Sorry about the long post. I am trying to be clear after too many “What you really want to do is…” Hope you understand. Your feedback could help lots of people in the far east! My wife and I hope to spend time educating the locals in IT, English and other skills.

Hi,
Welcome to LinuxQuestions.org. Since you're new here (and to linux), you've misunderstood the meaning of Linux From Scratch. It's the name of a GNU/Linux distribution/instruction set. I guess you probably meant to post in Linux - Newbie forum. Hope you find answers to your questions soon enough. Best wishes.

I have asked a moderator to move your thread to a more appropriate forum.

Moved: This thread is more suitable in Linux-Newbie and has been moved accordingly to help your thread/question get the exposure it deserves.

8Mb is just not enough. 32Mb is hardly enough.

See:
http://kmandla.wordpress.com/2010/10...at-150mhz-32mb
http://kmandla.wordpress.com/2010/10...t-150mhz-32mb/
http://kmandla.wordpress.com/2010/10...3mhz-and-32mb/

...he writes a lot about using non-graphical apps

I have an Athlon XP which has 3Gb. With only 256Mb you are looking at Xfce, not Gnome or KDE, something like Xubuntu, Lubuntu, Sam Linux, Dreamlinux or Zenwalk.

Something many people don't understand is that you can't have a (fairly) lightweight distro and then pile heavyweight apps on top. That uses memory.

Hi,
How about starting with a live cd/dvd. You dont have to install anything on the hard drive. I would recommend knoppix dvd (5.1) I believe and then there is Ultimate distro. It is something you would need if you are stuck with linux cli.
Another option is installing ubuntu as a program in winduhs 7. You can choose yali and install it. When you want to uninstall it would be there in add/remove programs.
I hope this helps. Any more queries please post.
PS:- linux users are very agressive when it comes to linux so just bear/ignore them :)

I wonder how many other people missed the M's in that (as I did on first skim through your post) and thought you were talking about a computer, not a pile of scrap.

No need to say it, since you already understood it is the expected response to your request.

A machine that underpowered (mainly the ram size) will be a serious handicap when learning Linux.

All your choices will be driven by the limited ram. Even so, your time will be wasted waiting for even the lightweight applications you chose to do simple things.

Live CD running on what?

The system with 256MB ram would be far lamer running a live CD than running an installed copy.

Running the right live CD instead of Windows 7 on a decent laptop, might be better for learning Linux than installing to the hard drive on a 256MB relic. But not much better. Running a live CD Linux is SLOW! It would let you run Linux on the laptop without ever installing Linux on the laptop. But I still wouldn't recommend it.

If you plan to shrink the Windows install on the laptop and make Linux dual boot with Windows, playing with a live CD first in the same laptop is probably worth the extra time (to improve the overall safety and decision quality of setting up the dual boot). But longer term a live CD is a support tool, not a good primary copy of Linux.

That hasn't matched my experience nor my family's experience with Open Office. I rarely use MS Word and find it totally intimidating. It seems to be designed for use only by people whose primary tool is a word processor. I use a wide variety of software tool types a small amount each and need tools that are effective for occasional use. The word processor in OO is little more approachable for getting something done without a ton of preparation.

Most members of my family use a word processor much more and knew MS Word well before ever seeing OO. They often use OO. They dislike OO just because it is different from MS Office and they learned MS Office first. They don't find OO to be worse against any objective standards. None of us have found OO unreliable compared to MS (as you described). It's all about UI differences.

I don't think that is a good idea either. Most Linux distributions assume access to the internet almost as much as a Windows install does. Getting the right display driver installed might be tricky without internet access. Getting the mix of applications you want may be tricky without the internet.

Don't think of internet on Linux as something extra you need to learn that might distract you from other aspects of learning Linux or that might be easier to approach after learning other aspects of Linux. Rather, think of not having the internet as that kind of distraction and extra requirement for learning. You can install, configure and use Linux without the internet, but that will require some extra knowledge that is better left for after you learn the basics.

http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=antix

http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=damnsmall

Hi,

Welcome to LQ!

My first suggestion to you is to trim your requests. It is very difficult for us to help you with multiple requests within a thread. Especially long winded!

I suggest that you look at 'How to Ask Questions the Smart Way' so in the future your queries provide information that will aid us in diagnosis of the problem or address your needs.

You could use a LiveCD from 'The LiveCD List' to boot the machine of choice to test drive or then configure and format the drive. If you plan on using the drive for multiple systems then partition the drive for your needs. Then format with the filesystem of choice. Most LiveCD do have the means to install.

I would suggest that you look at using the best choice system to work with. You could use a VM (Virtual Machine) to host a client. That client could be a GNU/Linux of your choice. I prefer Slackware! Nothing saying the Laptop can't be used to dual boot or VM. Your choice, look at 'Virtual'.

As for the 'shuttle box, bump the ram to the max and work with the GNU/Linux of choice.

Just a few links to aid you to gaining some understanding;

1 Linux Documentation Project
2 Rute Tutorial & Exposition
3 Linux Command Guide
4 Bash Beginners Guide
5 Bash Reference Manual
6 Advanced Bash-Scripting Guide
7 Linux Newbie Admin Guide
8 LinuxSelfHelp
9 Getting Started with Linux

The above links and others can be found at 'Slackware-Links'. More than just Slackware® links!

I just watched the Antix YouTube video that I found (a few clicks later) from that link you posted. It is at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGe0K...eature=related

I was very impressed. I didn't expect a Linux GUI would work that well on a machine as short of ram as the video claimed.

I had heard quite a lot about the existence and purpose of Antix, because I've been using Mepis for a while. But I never tried Antix nor even looked at a video, so I assumed it was more limited.

I still wouldn't try to learn Linux on a machine with just 256MB of ram. But that video sure makes Antix look like a good choice if that were what you needed to do.

I've been very slow to discard several of the "pile of scrap" vintage computers lying around my house. So if I find some free time, I might even install Antix on one.

rokytnji - Many thanks for the links. I will investigate.

Onebuck - thanks for the link. I shall read with interest.

Arochester - many thanks for the feedback. Again. I shall view with interest.

Please everyone - think "What can we do to implement Linux and apps on FAR EASTERN, under powered machines where you can't say to the locals "Oh, buy another 3MB RAM" when it's a month's wages. Let's think older renderings of S/W perhaps? You know, someone has a P133, do you stick on Windows 95 and Office 7. I've done that many a time for users here in the UK. Surely likewise is possible with Linux?

Silverback, Many thanks for your help. "PS:- Linux users are very agressive when it comes to Linux so just bear/ignore them" Yeah. I have universally found Linux users... intense. :-)

The irony I find is that at least in past, Linux users were bug about "Ahh, you can run Linux with a far smaller footprint than Windows" and then when I talk to such users they tell me I need a ruddy rack server to run it on. Eh? :-)

Thanks again to everyone. I will be getting more RAM and reading up.

Ask? I for one have a few bits of old RAM lying around...

Of course that is possible. The problem is that old versions of software often are no longer maintained. So they get no security-updates and you will be rendered vulnerable.
Oh, you can run Linux in a small footprint, the problem here is the definition of small. Even older and cheaper embedded devices have at least 32 MB RAM nowadays and the 8 MB of your Pentium rack are even to small to work comfortable on Windows 95 (which is 15 years old now). You don't need a rackserver, but a minimum of system rquirements should be fullfilled.
Take a look http://www.connochaetos.org/wiki/dok...d=connochaetos, the website of the former Deli Linux, which was aimed at very low hardware specs and see the comment with the reason for the new start of the OS.

With 256MB of RAM, all of nowadays "lightweight" distros will run fine in this machine - in a old laptop of mine (a P3 700MHz 256MB) run (well) it: http://crunchbanglinux.org/downloads/statler/alpha-02/ - I recommend it: after boot, it consumes less than 60MB of RAM - with this distro, I can ran normally even firefox

Nothing maintained nowadays will run relatively well with less than 128MB of RAM

Hi,

Your Welcome!

If you plan on attempting to use modern GNU/Linux then expect that answer. You could always roll back to earlier versions to implement on such machines. It will depend on the circa for the equipment. If we use the P133, example then you should roll back to circa 1999 for a GNU/Linux with a light desktop. Slackware 8.2 could be used but again light environment on that footprint.

GNU/Linux has always tried to keep a smaller footprint but with improvements some growth is expected. Whoever you are talking to may only look at things from that perspective. I know loads of people who just want to work with small footprint machines, trim things to minimalist point. Sometimes that task can be a learning experience.
Of course things will work with more CPU cores, large memory and massive storage for a server application but if you are using a SOHO then keep things to a minimum or fit to the requirements. That's why GNU/Linux can be utilized or fitted to your needs as compared to other operating systems.

:hattip:

^^^
Thanks guys. This is the sort of answer I was after.

Please note – I have NO INTENTION of putting either machines on the internet. If I wanted an internet Linux box I would go for a full blown new PC. I have a Windows 7 laptop that carries out that task. I am not trying to replicate that.

So I don't care about security updates. Both boxes are about learning about installation, the CLI and running basic office apps. Nothing more. So using older renderings of apps is fine. My security solution is, "Keep 'em off the web.' I'll be installing and reformatting a lot anyway as I learn, I know. Later on I can expand and shape.

I am used to using a minimal GUI interface and actually LOATH desktops that are too colourful and clever. Vista and Windows 7 make me shudder. I was fine with the Windows 95 interface. I hate todays 'Web look' when anything could be a link, a button, a bit of art, an icon... who knows anymore?

I am realistic about what both machines can achieve. They will not video editing, running Oracle, playing 3D games, operating as a server... This is about tasting Linux and learning what I can do on potential 3rd world tech. When I am happy I can run an office app or two THEN I can upgrade RAM and expand as I wish. Yes the P75 needs some EDO RAM. No worries. (Besides, I was once video editing very happily on a P133 under Windows 95. Come on. Linux can surely do as well? :-) )

Let me taste first! Lemme use older tech and prove Linux's value. Then I may fully convert. The way to the dark side is by small steps. :-)

>If you plan on attempting to use modern GNU/Linux then expect that answer.

I have explicitly said otherwise! I want Linus to match my hardware NOT the other way around.

This info is helpful. The range of choice is satisfying.

Cheers!

Hi,

If you want to learn in that manner then look at 'ftp://slackware.mirrors.tds.net/pub/slackware/' or 'http://ftp.osuosl.org/pub/slackware/'. For the lower class machines I would use 8.1 to 10.2, note that these early versions will use a floppy based install. Most hardware of the era that you wish to use doesn't support CDROM booting. You could look at 'sbootmgr/' to hopefully boot that media on early machines when attempting a CDROM install.

Be sure to look at the 'Slackware-HOWTO' and CHANGES_AND_HINTS.TXT (11.0 and on). You will find other documentation on the install CD/DVD media for the version that may be useful to understand things.

Just a few more useful links;

Slackware® Essentials
Slackware® Basics
Linux Documentation Project
Rute Tutorial & Exposition
Linux Command Guide
Bash Reference Manual
Advanced Bash-Scripting Guide
Linux Newbie Admin Guide
LinuxSelfHelp
Getting Started with Linux
Virtualiation- Top 10
:hattip:
The above links and others can be found at 'Slackware-Links'. More than just Slackware® links!

Spotted! A comment about this posting on a blog

"Old hardware a handicap? Au contraire!" - http://kmandla.wordpress.com/2010/10...-au-contraire/

Hi,

When I'm speaking about low-end, it would be the class of machines you presented. P133 would be a low end unit as compared to todays processors. I'm not saying you can't use that class but to use a modern distribution, most require at least 256MB memory & 10-20GB storage. Then if you expect to run 'X', the underpowered machine would be slow as molasses.

If you're going to do nothing more than 'cli' & scripting then do as I suggested previously.

Look at the text file README.txt on most GNU/Linux or do a Google.
In the referenced link http://kmandla.wordpress.com/2010/10...-au-contraire/: they are speaking of a 1.7 Ghz clocked machine with 256MB. I agree it will work but don't expect much performance from it.
:hattip:

I see I was the person that blogger quoted to disagree with.

The view there about what makes a good learning environment (challenging and unforgiving) seems surprisingly popular here as well, but is totally wrong.

I've learned (or tried to) many things (including my first few attempts at Linux) in challenging unforgiving environments. A beginner would find himself making ten overlapping mistakes at once and can't figure out how to correct any one of them because the other nine get in the way of diagnosing or understanding any one mistake.

A good learning environment is one that lets you focus on one aspect of the topic at a time and get a good understanding of it and use it as a tool in reaching later aspects of the topic.

For an OS, that means you want an obvious GUI that lets you do what you want to do intuitively before you've had time to learn how. You also need easy to navigate documentation that tells you what a beginner needs to know for basic activities (rather than typical Linux documentation that is a disorganized pile of advanced details where an expert can look up the hardest 10% of a topic he already 90% knows).

For Linux, the above is Mepis 7 or 8.0 but not on a machine with just 256MB of ram (also not Mepis 8.5 unfortunately).

Guys, there's no need to get in a tiz! I said I would get more RAM in on the Athlon.

Lemme play a bit. There are many variants of Linex. I'll try a few.

No hassle. I got time.

Sorry. I was reacting to the "challenging and unforgiving is best for a beginner" sentiment posted in that blog and many other places. I wasn't arguing (any more) with your plan or decisions.

You can the screen colours in the GUI. Well, I don't know what you mean by 'the GUI' as there is quite a choice of GUIs, including none, but most of the GUIs give you a choice of many things.

...which may be a case for none (no gui)... You should, at some time, do some learning of the commend line, at the very least as a way to deal with problems when things go wrong, but it may not be the right place to start, for you.

...which is good...

The bigger problem is likely to be 'foreign' file formats. At times, there are file formats, which are important in the real world, which are undocumented, or the originator of which does not stick to the documentation (or, what is documented is a version with significant differences from the version that is actually in use). This, with all respect, must make things difficult for the OO team (&, in some circumstances, GO-OO will deal with these things better than OO).

So, the first question is, do you still experience problems if you stick to OO's native file formats?

There should be no possibility of OO trashing the operating system.

Abiword would be an alternative (I'd guess you will hate kword, as it takes a semi-DTP approach, and I get the impression that this would be exactly what you don't want), but it is simpler, lighter and probably even less good at importing .doc files than GO-OO.

You do have that choice; if you were to go for something like Windowmaker or one of the *boxes (and LXDE is a derivative of one of the, eg, Openbox-type things), you'll get simple, dumb (dumb-ish) and fast on a particular standard of hardware. XFCE is moderately small, moderately fast and relatively unfussy, but even that will be slow on very low spec hardware. At what point does the slowness of the kit inhibit your learning? I'll leave you to decide that.

Yeah, sure, but don't come back with 'I'm using a P75/8M and it is so slow that I can't learn. Linux is useless.' That would be pointless.

Even when I was using a P75, it had more like 24M ram. Win 3.11 didn't run well on that little ram running simulation programs, but then it didn't run well with more ram, either. A contemporary Linux distro ran adequately with anything above 16M, but this was not running programs of any great sophistication, so that isn't really a like-for-like comparison. Currently, I have open a browser with a memory footprint of 230M (roughly 90 tabs open); try doing that with 8M ram and the system will more-or-less die (slow down to a speed that is, roughly, geological) whatever productivity argument that you could come up with for doing that.

i cant believe no one recommended puppy-if i missed it sorry-as to athlon 1.7 with 256 ram thats plenty for all light weight distros

just my 2cents
ps:lubuntu runs great on m my p3@950 mhz with 256

H Salasi,

Man thanks for your feedback. Very good of you and great answers to my questions. I admit that my experience of OO on Windows (not just on my PC but others) was so traumatic I swore 'never again!' But I think Linux maybe another matter. I am willing to give it another try under Linux. Abiword looks good. I like, when I have time (which currently is never) to do some fiction writing so I want a writer's wordprocessor – small, clean, focused on text. So you are absolutely right about not wanting a DTP approach.

I am not disturbed by slow performance. Believe me. I enjoy pushing an old machine and seeing what it can do even if it is sluggish. Frankly, if it's faster than a typewriter it's fine! :-) I am NOT trying to have my cake and eat it! I know when you work with limited hardware there is a speed payoff. Many times I have been happy to pay the price.

Bear in mind I will be starting off with the Athlon and then seeing how I can push the P75 – if it's possible. BIOS limits the HD to 500MB which is the main problem. RAM is NOT a problem. I can EXPAND. That's OK. When I said 8MB I just meant that was it's *current* config.

I have read around and concluded that, for the Athlon at least, slackware is the way to go, I have read the instruction docs and it's not TOO scary for me as I am familiar with partitioning, swap files (and partitions) and a good part of the jargon. Noteverythign is yet clear, but I have a slackware fan at work who speaks english as opposed to techie. I have installed Windows NT4 and that's bad enough I can tell you. I have set up dual boot OS's before and pushed Windows 95 into a 386 and Windows 3.0 on an XT. I ENJOY mucking around at a low level and making computers do what people tell me they shouldn't! I then find I can work 'miracles' on other people's machines showing them they CAN do things on their hardware after all. It's done me well especially with the extremely poor. This is my latest challenge!

I am used to Regedit in Windows, various .ini files, fdisk, etc. I have set up users in Windows NT4 at home. I have had exposure to UNIX @ Uni. In my job I am configuring data systems with hundreds of config files, building SQL and Oracle DB's from scripts, loads of .ini and XML files – it's a pain being almost entirely manual. I am effectively in charge of setting up data sets for testing for my team at work. So working at a low level, non-GUI install is FINE. I gotta learn some new jargon but I have had to learnt the basics of pathology in my job as well as the S/W as well as DB's. That's why I've given up writing for now. I am always having do dive into something techie instead. I gather the pace of life out east is slower and my wife promises me non-techie time when I am out there. For now, though, I gotta learn.

I'll work up on the slackware install on the Athlon – proving I can get my XP functionality on the same hardware base. Then I can expand RAM, start again, build up the system, then see, with experience, what miracles I can do on the P75. If I can. If not, c'est la vi.

Frankly, though, I would rather be writing but you get paid for Linux installs in the East and not writing. Plus, I often end up helping neighbours out with their computer issues. I want to be ready for both Windows and Linux out East. Believe me, my research makes it clear that "knowledge of Linux installations" (that means CLI and fdisk guys) is what is wanted.

It's been a (nice) battle here in the office between Ubuntu fans and slackware but, reading the material here – thanks guys – Slackware has to be the way forward for me. Possible DSL on the P75 but will see.

I'm happy I know what my next step is.

Cheers guys. And don't sweat the RAM in either machine. I can expand and I am willing to learn the lmits, reformat, expand and try aagin. Trust me, I've done all of this from DOS 1 (yup - I used DOS 1 on an ACT sirius with a 10MB HD) to Windows 30/3.1 to 95/98. NT4, 2000, etc. I've had to set up keyboard drivers in DOS and non-unicode codes pages in Windows. I've done config.sys and autoexec files in bot Windows 9x kernals AND Nt kernals. I've done fiddly! I swear!

I hope that reassures! I get the RAM issues. Don't sweat it. I'll expand as needed. Promise.

JediNovice,
I too am a newbie to linux. No one (or very few people) here will be frustrated with you not understanding something, or even having to "hold your hand" some. This is a great community as you can see by the responses to your post. Total newbies are welcome (as I am/was!) Just remember you must be willing to learn to help us help you.

1. Firstly, please read again. This will help you form questions that are succinct and easy to understand. This will help us all save time arriving at a solution that is helpful to you.


If you would like further assistance, I would recommend you re-word your question in a format as outlined in the link. You might get more specific recommendations that way. Good Luck!

Ubu

With 256MB, you can run Absolute, CrunchBang, Puppy, Slitaz, Vector Light, or Zenwalk. Many will give you the Abiword word processor and Gnumeric spreadsheet instead of OpenOffice, as they take up less space. But there's nothing wrong with OpenOffice; all the computers at Google are running it!

8MB is almost impossible, even without a GUI. Damn Small Linux will just work, but they recommend 16MB. With a GUI, it requires 16 and recommends 24.

Pfft. Seriously? A machine that is underpowered is not a problem. Once you get into WMs (like openbox) nearly nothing is a problem. And of course, there are always the tilers.

Lightweight programs are not slow on low-end machines. Thunar and pcmanfm
are in my opinion much better than Nautilus or Dolphin. There's always MC if you want to use console. I run on a 1.6 ghz athlon and my system is a lot faster than my friend's C2D running Ubuntu.

I suggest crunchbang or antix for a lightweight distro. Then when you want to customize, something like Arch(woot) or gentoo or even LFS will be you choice.

Thanks again for the all the info. As I say, I am now, in part, in the hands of a slackware fan at work now which is going to help.

Time permitting (this year is a nightmare!) I plan to try my hand out on the Athlon.

Koldwar – your information sounds great. As I say, I am interested in what I can do on a minimal machine. Partly it's the romantic in me – there's soemthign in seeing a machine pushed to obsolesence given new life – and because I want to be prepared for Eastern PC's that go one far longer than in the West. But what are 'WM's?

I have plenty of EDO RAM I can stick in the P75. I kept it at 8MB for a minimum Windows install deliberately for reasons I'm not going into now! But I can up it to 32MB easy. But the BIOS limits me to a 500MB HD.

Ubu – I promise not to write war and peace in the future! I was posting initially a tale to explain EXACTLY where I was coming from – expecting degrees of "you wana do what?!!!" and trying to head it off a bit. As you can see I dud get a degree of "You wanna do waht" anyway.

Now the shock in the forum seems to be receding I will be asking much more succient and pointed questions in the future. Rest assured, I won't be writing reams again.

Thanks again to everyone. This has all been helpful.

Hasn't anybody suggested Tiny Core Linux? Can't get much smaller than that.

WM's are window managers. Unlike a full-blown desktop environment such as KDE or GNOME, window managers only manage windows. They don't provide things like desktop icons, file managers, etc. To get those, you have to install programs yourself, like iDesk or thunar. Some WMs are Openbox, Fluxbox, Xmonad, awesome, and dwm.

Try Minix, it's not Linux but it is what got it started! When I used it at my university back in 'old days' the install disk was a diskette (well, maybe 3) and the box was an old PS2.