[SOLVED] Upgrade hardware questions

business_kid · 05-06-2022, 10:52 AM

I'm upgrading my pc (one of these years) in the peculiar Irish market. I'm not a gamer but do want at least one VM running well. I've been quietly studying ads, specs, & reviews. I've noticed that pcs are offered with a few decent parts attached to cheap junk, which often reduces performance. I hope I am now in a position to ask some intelligent questions:

1. Can I ignore 4k video (as I've abused my eyes too much in the past to benefit from it) or is it going to take over?
I found out quite recently that the rx6700xt has a 192bit memory bus, but the rx6600xt has only a 128bit memory bus, so the memory bandwidth is much lower on the rx6600xt. That sort of detail is absent nearly everywhere. In fact, the rx6600xt sucks at resolutions above 1080p. Where can I get that sort of hardware insider details?
AMD have their Ryzen 1,3,5,7,& 9 cpus. What's the real difference between them? Are they just silly marketing names?
How much video memory is needed for hdmi-1.x? 8GB? more?
Does one have to check numbers of pcie lanes in cpu, video card & motherboard, or is all that sorted for you?

pan64 · 05-06-2022, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by business_kid

1. Can I ignore 4k video (as I've abused my eyes too much in the past to benefit from it) or is it going to take over?

buy if you know you need it. Otherwise I think it is not that important

Quote:

Originally Posted by business_kid

I found out quite recently that the rx6700xt has a 192bit memory bus, but the rx6600xt has only a 128bit memory bus, so the memory bandwidth is much lower on the rx6600xt. That sort of detail is absent nearly everywhere. In fact, the rx6600xt sucks at resolutions above 1080p. Where can I get that sort of hardware insider details?

again, buy it only if you need that. AMD RX480 is good enough for everything except games and some extreme apps.

Quote:

Originally Posted by business_kid

AMD have their Ryzen 1,3,5,7,& 9 cpus. What's the real difference between them? Are they just silly marketing names?

you can compare them easily, https://www.google.com/search?channe...&q=cpu+compare
It definitely depends on your requirements again

Quote:

Originally Posted by business_kid

How much video memory is needed for hdmi-1.x? 8GB? more?

8 GB is enough for basic usage and browsing and similar tasks, and even more

Quote:

Originally Posted by business_kid

Does one have to check numbers of pcie lanes in cpu, video card & motherboard, or is all that sorted for you?

again, what do you really need?

Finally it all depends on your needs and your available budget.

business_kid · 05-06-2022, 12:57 PM

I'm not sure what I need - that's the issue.

I wanted this upgrade to last a significant distance. I've upgraded in the past and been disappointed, to put it mildly. But if I had to cater for everything going to 4k, that put demands on transfer rates, memory, etc that I otherwise can ignore.

My budget is variable - but I'm not spending for specs I don't need/want. It seems you can trip yourself up with a cpu with 20pcie lanes, a graphics card with 16 pcie lanes in a motherboard with only 8 pcie lanes. I want to avoid that kind of mistake and ensure that what I buy I can use fully.

Arnulf · 05-06-2022, 02:52 PM

2. An AMD graphics card with 128-Bit GDDR5 should be enough for you demands.
3. Choose a Ryzen 5 or a Ryzen 7. Because you want a dedicated graphics card avoid the G-models which includes an IGP. An IGP uses shared memory. An IGP decreases system's performance, delivers poor graphics performance and makes heat dissipation from processor more expensive. A Ryzen 9 seems to be oversized.

Possible system:
Processor: AMD Ryzen 5 5600X (6 cores, 12 threads, no IGP) or Ryzen 7 5800X (8 cores, 16 threads, no IGP)
Processor cooler: top-down, e.g. be quiet! Shadow Rock TF 2
RAM: 64 GiB = 2× 32 GiB DDR4 PC-3200
Mainboard: Chipset AMD B550, 1× M.2 NVMe PCIe 4.0 Slot + 1× NVMe PCIe 3.0 or 4.0 Slot, 4 Slots for DDR4 RAM, support for 128 GiB RAM
Graphics card: AMD RX 550 (for gaming & graphical simulation a more powerful AMD graphics card is recommended)
Mass storage devices: (M.2 NVMe 1 TB PCIe 4.0) XOR (M.2 NVMe 500 GB PCIe 4.0 + M.2 NVMe 2 TB (larger capacity if desired) PCIe 3.0)
NVMe heatsink(s): e.g. Sabrent Rocket NVMe Heatsink

Check if you need a RS232 port. Some actual mainboards provide one.

ondoho · 05-07-2022, 01:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by business_kid

Can I ignore 4k video (as I've abused my eyes too much in the past to benefit from it) or is it going to take over?

Are you refering to your monitor? GPU? General computing power?

Here's a random 4k video from youtube, all formats:

Code:

$> yt-dlp -F https://youtube.com/watch?v=ycDLfQ1Cv_Y
[youtube] ycDLfQ1Cv_Y: Downloading webpage
[youtube] ycDLfQ1Cv_Y: Downloading android player API JSON
[MetadataParser] Parsed artist from '%(title)s': 'Ireland 4K'
[MetadataParser] Parsed title from '%(title)s': 'Scenic Relaxation Film With Calming Music'
[MetadataParser] Could not interpret 'description' as 'Artist - (?P<artist>.+)'
[info] Available formats for ycDLfQ1Cv_Y:
ID  EXT   RESOLUTION FPS │   FILESIZE    TBR PROTO │ VCODEC           VBR ACODEC      ABR     ASR MORE INFO
───────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────
sb2 mhtml 48x27          │                   mhtml │ images                                       storyboard
sb1 mhtml 80x45          │                   mhtml │ images                                       storyboard
sb0 mhtml 160x90         │                   mhtml │ images                                       storyboard
139 m4a   audio only     │   21.23MiB    48k https │ audio only           mp4a.40.5   48k 22050Hz low, m4a_dash
249 webm  audio only     │   21.85MiB    50k https │ audio only           opus        50k 48000Hz low, webm_dash
250 webm  audio only     │   29.15MiB    67k https │ audio only           opus        67k 48000Hz low, webm_dash
140 m4a   audio only     │   56.33MiB   129k https │ audio only           mp4a.40.2  129k 44100Hz medium, m4a_dash
251 webm  audio only     │   57.56MiB   132k https │ audio only           opus       132k 48000Hz medium, webm_dash
17  3gp   176x144      7 │   31.07MiB    71k https │ mp4v.20.3        71k mp4a.40.2    0k 22050Hz 144p
394 mp4   256x144     30 │   25.63MiB    58k https │ av01.0.00M.08    58k video only              144p, mp4_dash
160 mp4   256x144     30 │   17.24MiB    39k https │ avc1.4d400c      39k video only              144p, mp4_dash
278 webm  256x144     30 │   33.69MiB    77k https │ vp9              77k video only              144p, webm_dash
395 mp4   426x240     30 │   45.37MiB   104k https │ av01.0.00M.08   104k video only              240p, mp4_dash
133 mp4   426x240     30 │   41.22MiB    94k https │ avc1.4d4015      94k video only              240p, mp4_dash
242 webm  426x240     30 │   57.91MiB   133k https │ vp9             133k video only              240p, webm_dash
396 mp4   640x360     30 │   99.41MiB   228k https │ av01.0.01M.08   228k video only              360p, mp4_dash
134 mp4   640x360     30 │   94.53MiB   217k https │ avc1.4d401e     217k video only              360p, mp4_dash
18  mp4   640x360     30 │  281.60MiB   647k https │ avc1.42001E     647k mp4a.40.2    0k 44100Hz 360p
243 webm  640x360     30 │  137.05MiB   315k https │ vp9             315k video only              360p, webm_dash
397 mp4   854x480     30 │  196.77MiB   452k https │ av01.0.04M.08   452k video only              480p, mp4_dash
135 mp4   854x480     30 │  157.45MiB   361k https │ avc1.4d401f     361k video only              480p, mp4_dash
244 webm  854x480     30 │  259.24MiB   595k https │ vp9             595k video only              480p, webm_dash
398 mp4   1280x720    30 │  419.03MiB   963k https │ av01.0.05M.08   963k video only              720p, mp4_dash
136 mp4   1280x720    30 │  262.34MiB   602k https │ avc1.4d401f     602k video only              720p, mp4_dash
22  mp4   1280x720    30 │ ~326.12MiB   731k https │ avc1.64001F     731k mp4a.40.2    0k 44100Hz 720p
247 webm  1280x720    30 │  557.35MiB  1281k https │ vp9            1281k video only              720p, webm_dash
399 mp4   1920x1080   30 │  775.88MiB  1783k https │ av01.0.08M.08  1783k video only              1080p, mp4_dash
137 mp4   1920x1080   30 │    1.31GiB  3094k https │ avc1.640028    3094k video only              1080p, mp4_dash
248 webm  1920x1080   30 │    1.01GiB  2371k https │ vp9            2371k video only              1080p, webm_dash
400 mp4   2560x1440   30 │    2.62GiB  6157k https │ av01.0.12M.08  6157k video only              1440p, mp4_dash
271 webm  2560x1440   30 │    3.21GiB  7554k https │ vp9            7554k video only              1440p, webm_dash
401 mp4   3840x2160   30 │    5.47GiB 12870k https │ av01.0.12M.08 12870k video only              2160p, mp4_dash
313 webm  3840x2160   30 │    7.28GiB 17131k https │ vp9           17131k video only              2160p, webm_dash

So, as far as youtube is concerned you certainly don't need 4k.

And even if your video's resolution is larger, your media player can scale it down. My 2015 all-intel laptop can scale down from 1920x1080 to 1366x768 no problem, but beyond that the stress on GPU/CPU shows.

HTH

business_kid · 05-07-2022, 04:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ondoho

> Can I ignore 4k video (as I've abused my eyes too much in the past to benefit from it) or is it going to take over?
Are you refering to your monitor? GPU? General computing power?

I mean do people see it becoming the de facto standard in the next 5 years so that my upgrade has to cater for it, or can I safely ignore it?

That question came first because it has a lot of implications - graphics, network, storage, etc.

@Arnulf: I'm definitely pro-amd, but it's difficult to get your pick of amd parts here without importing, which imposes it's own costs. Your mention of the B550M motherboard was interesting. Have a look at this ad https://www.adverts.ie/desktops/gami...080ti/26571354

Now, the cpu has 16 pcie lanes; the graphics uses 16 lanes @pcie-3.x. But I'll need a (presumably) pcie wifi card in there also. And I read that graphics can bypass the chipset and have direct cpu -->gpu drive. How does all that work out?

Arnulf · 05-07-2022, 05:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by business_kid

I'm definitely pro-amd, but it's difficult to get your pick of amd parts here without importing, which imposes it's own costs.

Is import so difficult and expensive? The Republic of Ireland is part of the EU.

Quote:

Originally Posted by business_kid

Have a look at this ad https://www.adverts.ie/desktops/gami...080ti/26571354

This is a very bad machine. Don't waste money for it!

CPU - RYZEN 5 3600 → This is an ancient Zen2 processor.
CPU Cooler - Cooler Master ML 240 → Cooler Master components are low budged components with corresponding quality. ML240 is a liquid cooler. Do you really want a liquid cooling system?
MOBO - MSI B550 TOMAHAWK → This is OK.
RAM - XPG D60 RGB 16 GB 3600 MHz → This is insufficient RAM. VMs eat RAM. 3600 MHz isn't necassary if you don't want memory OC. 3200 MHz is maximum for Ryzen 5/7 without memory OC. Less than 32 GiB RAM = 2× 16 GiB 3200 MHz (and two free slots for possibility of upgrade) is out-of-time.
GPU - MSI GTX 1080 TI 11GB → This is a nvidia graphics card. nvidia doesn't support FOSS drivers! Don't use nvidia graphics cards if you want to run Linux.
STORAGE - NVME 256GB → It's OK if it's PCIe 4.0. It's bad if it's PCIe 3.0.
STORAGE - SEAGATE 1T HDD → This is very bad. If you don't have to store 4+ TB data on your machine avoid HDDs. Use a second NVMe SSD or a SATA SSD for storage.

business_kid · 05-07-2022, 07:03 AM

You make many valid points, thank you. I only expected 1 VM, so 16GB shouldbe OK, surely? I'm getting by fine on 6GB without the VM, and 4GB with no swap on a RazPi 4. I didn't spot a comment on the pcie lanes.

Getting stuff into Ireland is surprisingly difficult. Ebay & Amazon charge ripoff excesses "in case we have to pay duty" (which they don't) and never refund it. I can buy in the EU but Shopping in a foreign language is risky to put it mildly. I'm handicapped, which doesn't help. It limits me where I can buy.

How about this one? https://www.adverts.ie/desktops/high-end-pc/26728579

If I don't need to cater for 4k, then the Graphics should be sufficient. Being a box, I can always upgrade. The cpu is overkill.

computersavvy · 05-07-2022, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by business_kid

Have a look at this ad https://www.adverts.ie/desktops/gami...080ti/26571354

Now, the cpu has 16 pcie lanes; the graphics uses 16 lanes @pcie-3.x. But I'll need a (presumably) pcie wifi card in there also.

Yes you will need a wifi card, but that is inexpensive to add. If you can use wired it is already there on the mobo.

Contrary to the previous comment on this add, I think it is quite adequate for what you are asking about.

I have a similar machine I built for myself about 2 years ago. Mine has the ryzen 3600 (6 core 12 thread), a GTX 1050, a 240GB SSD and 3 TB HDD, with a B550 mobo and 32 GB RAM.

I use it as a plexmedia server, my daily driver, and often have as many as 4 VMs (each with 4GB RAM and 2 CPU cores) running at the same time.

While others may say you need much better it really depends on your own needs. For what you stated is needed the machine as advertised would easily meet the needs. Advertising hype is just that. It is intended to encourage you to buy the biggest and best regardless of what is actually needed.

Today I would probably go for a ryzen 9 CPU ($500 - $8000) with appropriate mobo ($200 - $400) and upgrade the GPU to a GTX 2080 ($600 to $1500)if I were building it new, but this is an inexpensive workhorse and so far has done everything I asked it to. I do not like spending $3000 and up for something that is far more than needed for daily use and upgrading the CPU and GPU could easily cost that.

Arnulf · 05-07-2022, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by business_kid

Getting stuff into Ireland is surprisingly difficult. Ebay & Amazon charge ripoff excesses "in case we have to pay duty" (which they don't) and never refund it.

This is very strange.

Quote:

Originally Posted by business_kid

I can buy in the EU but Shopping in a foreign language is risky to put it mildly.

A serious web shop in the EU can be used in all local languages and English language.

Quote:

Originally Posted by business_kid

How about this one? https://www.adverts.ie/desktops/high-end-pc/26728579

It seems to fit to your demands fairly. It's not too expensive with Ryzen 9 5900X and monitor. It's 16 GiB RAM should be realized with 2× 8 GiB. This would enable a memory upgrade by adding two modules if necessary. Very important for Linux: An AMD graphics card is built in.

business_kid · 05-07-2022, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arnulf

A serious web shop in the EU can be used in all local languages and English language.

Like pcspecialist.<whatever>? They're all over Europe. They give a UK phone number, which I am going to have to ring to find out about where the Irish PCs are built. The place don't provide an address online.

business_kid · 05-07-2022, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by computersavvy

Yes you will need a wifi card, but that is inexpensive to add. If you can use wired it is already there on the mobo.

Contrary to the previous comment on this add, I think it is quite adequate for what you are asking about.

I have a similar machine I built for myself about 2 years ago. Mine has the ryzen 3600 (6 core 12 thread), a GTX 1050, a 240GB SSD and 3 TB HDD, with a B550 mobo and 32 GB RAM.

I use it as a plexmedia server, my daily driver, and often have as many as 4 VMs (each with 4GB RAM and 2 CPU cores) running at the same time.

While others may say you need much better it really depends on your own needs. For what you stated is needed the machine as advertised would easily meet the needs. Advertising hype is just that. It is intended to encourage you to buy the biggest and best regardless of what is actually needed.

Today I would probably go for a ryzen 9 CPU ($500 - $8000) with appropriate mobo ($200 - $400) and upgrade the GPU to a GTX 2080 ($600 to $1500)if I were building it new, but this is an inexpensive workhorse and so far has done everything I asked it to. I do not like spending $3000 and up for something that is far more than needed for daily use and upgrading the CPU and GPU could easily cost that.

I certainly wouldn't buy that nvidia card new and need less specs for less money. I can spend it, but I simply can't justify €2k on a box.

I'm looking secondhand initially, and learning. Zen 2 --> zen 3 seems little different, until your core count goes up. There also seems to be a big jump in the GFlops number, but floating point is a small part of a cpu workload. Nobody is sticking their necks out and informing me on pcie lanes. I don't want nvidia if I can avoid it. Their closed source binaries are a perpetual niusance. Real info is hidden in side points and not always validated by tests. And I've a lot of catching up to do. I was a hardware guy, so if I'm getting mixed up on hardware, I pity other folks.

business_kid · 05-07-2022, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by computersavvy

Yes you will need a wifi card, but that is inexpensive to add. If you can use wired it is already there on the mobo.

Contrary to the previous comment on this add, I think it is quite adequate for what you are asking about.

I have a similar machine I built for myself about 2 years ago. Mine has the ryzen 3600 (6 core 12 thread), a GTX 1050, a 240GB SSD and 3 TB HDD, with a B550 mobo and 32 GB RAM.

I use it as a plexmedia server, my daily driver, and often have as many as 4 VMs (each with 4GB RAM and 2 CPU cores) running at the same time.

While others may say you need much better it really depends on your own needs. For what you stated is needed the machine as advertised would easily meet the needs. Advertising hype is just that. It is intended to encourage you to buy the biggest and best regardless of what is actually needed.

Today I would probably go for a ryzen 9 CPU ($500 - $8000) with appropriate mobo ($200 - $400) and upgrade the GPU to a GTX 2080 ($600 to $1500)if I were building it new, but this is an inexpensive workhorse and so far has done everything I asked it to. I do not like spending $3000 and up for something that is far more than needed for daily use and upgrading the CPU and GPU could easily cost that.

EDIT: Sorry - repeat.

Timothy Miller · 05-07-2022, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by business_kid

I certainly wouldn't buy that nvidia card new and need less specs for less money. I can spend it, but I simply can't justify €2k on a box.

I'm looking secondhand initially, and learning. Zen 2 --> zen 3 seems little different, until your core count goes up. There also seems to be a big jump in the GFlops number, but floating point is a small part of a cpu workload. Nobody is sticking their necks out and informing me on pcie lanes. I don't want nvidia if I can avoid it. Their closed source binaries are a perpetual niusance. Real info is hidden in side points and not always validated by tests. And I've a lot of catching up to do. I was a hardware guy, so if I'm getting mixed up on hardware, I pity other folks.

Biggest advantage of Zen3 over Zen2 is that the IPC is SIGNIFICANTLY better so single threaded performance is a big boost, and the cache efficiencies are massively better with the redesign of the chiplets. This CAN help in certain cases (such as gaming), but doesn't improve performance in ALL circumstances. In mobile, Zen3 (Cezanne vs. Renoir but not Lucienne) also has a fairly large power efficiency improvements, but that's not really relevant for you given you're looking at desktop.

Overall, given you're looking 2nd hand, Zen 2 or 3 would be perfectly adequate. They both (assuming you're getting a CPU, not APU) have 24 lanes of PCIe (4 lanes reserved for chipset so 20 usable by anything directly connected in total), both support PCIe 4.0 depending upon the chipset they're used on (300 or 400 series = PCIe 3.0 only, X570 has more 4.0 lanes made available than B550 while the A520 has none like the older chipsets).

I dare say you're overthinking the graphics card too much. Yes, a 128-bit memory bus does limit a card, but generally the cards that use it are cut down enough that they wouldn't gain THAT much of an advantage of having a wider bus. Ultimately, how much 3d do you do? If you're not doing a lot, and don't plan on doing a lot, something like the 6600XT is still going to be FAR more than you need. If you do need 3d, how much? Do you simply play esports titles? Do you do a lot of AAA gaming? Lots of CAD/CAM design? Video postprocessing? Actual use case is very important for deciding what you need. For instance, for me, I play only a few older games, and exceedingly light "time waster" games. So the Vega 8 IGP on my 5850U is actually perfectly adequate, I don't really need anything more powerful than that, and even less powerful still works fine for me even. As to your point about Nvidia, that I 100% agree on. I'd go with the new Intel Arc despite all the potential pitfalls of first gen hardware & drivers before I'd buy Nvidia myself.

computersavvy · 05-07-2022, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by business_kid

How about this one? https://www.adverts.ie/desktops/high-end-pc/26728579

I happen to like that one as-is. Certainly less than many equivalent when purchased new.