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Old 09-07-2022, 04:04 PM   #1
haertig
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Troubleshooting failed hardware - Opinions on root cause?


Hi all. It's been quite a few years since I had to do any kind of hardware troubleshooting. But I now have a dead computer. Intermittent. Sometimes it works.

Symptom: The computer is working away just fine, then bam, lights out. Complete power down. No fans left running, no lights. Total power down. Try to power up, hear fans start, but within one second it's total lights out again. This power up, one second, power down sequence is repeatable.

Recent changes to system: About three weeks ago I installed new memory sticks (complete replacement - all four sticks identical). Inexpensive Kingston direct from China (old computer - needed DDR2, China direct is only real supplier for this). Passed full Memtest run (only one pass though). No issues while using the computer since memory install. Until this recent "lights out" problem. I wouldn't think a complete power down is a typical memory issue. I can't say this with any certainty, but I would expect the system to go into La-La-Land with bad memory, but not totally power down. Maybe I'm wrong about this though.

Attempts to repair: A good internal cleaning with Dust-Off. Checked all power connections for tightness. Checked that memory was well seated in the motherboard (full static precautions during all of this). Visually inspected carefully, looking for anything that could be a short.

It booted fine after the above "repair". Lasted about 3 hours before lights out again. It's been sitting powered off since then, as I worked to get this replacement spare computer I'm using now into usable shape.

My working theory on root cause is a bad power supply. It's a decent model - Corsair brand 550 watt. Not high end, but not an el-cheapo either. A good ten years old though. Nothing on this computer requires high wattage, I'm using only onboard video. 550 watts is way overkill.

My next planned step is to replace the power supply. I have a few old computers sitting around. I just stole a LiteOn 250watt model out of an old HP desktop that I can use for testing. 250 watts is fine for this system.

But before proceeding and diving down a rabbit hole of my own ignorance, I thought I'd ask here to see if anyone has other/better ideas of how to troubleshoot, or suggestions of things to try.

Thanks in advance!

Last edited by haertig; 09-07-2022 at 04:05 PM.
 
Old 09-07-2022, 04:40 PM   #2
mrmazda
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The LiteOn could be a good solution. First inspect motherboard and Corsair for bad electrolytic capacitors. DDR2 motherboards caught the tail end of the bad caps plague, making yours a candidate. Also candidate are any caps in the Corsair not made by a major brand, such as OST, CapXon, Taicon, Su'scon and others failing not too long after the warranty expires. Visit badcaps.net for the lowdown on caps. My only installed Corsair PSU is 7 years old, 430W, and doesn't get much uptime. My other Corsair was a freebee that's gross overkill in anything I own, 750W used only as a spare and for testing.
 
Old 09-07-2022, 04:55 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haertig View Post
Hi all. It's been quite a few years since I had to do any kind of hardware troubleshooting. But I now have a dead computer. Intermittent. Sometimes it works.

Symptom: The computer is working away just fine, then bam, lights out. Complete power down. No fans left running, no lights. Total power down. Try to power up, hear fans start, but within one second it's total lights out again. This power up, one second, power down sequence is repeatable.
<snip>

It booted fine after the above "repair". Lasted about 3 hours before lights out again. It's been sitting powered off since then, as I worked to get this replacement spare computer I'm using now into usable shape.
I second mrmazda's post. I've had several older systems succumb to electrolytic capacitor rot. They behaved almost exactly like you describe. While you've got the case opened up, inspect the various electroytic caps on the motherboard and see if any have bulges (see attached photo). Someone who is exceedingly skilled at soldering might be able to replace the bad caps. I tried once but, in the end, replacing the motherboard was easier.

HTH...
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Old 09-07-2022, 04:55 PM   #4
rclark
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Power Supply would be my first point to trouble-shoot. I keep a spare in my computer cabinet just for these occasions now. I think you are on the right track. As above, it could be motherboard, but the last two failures I'd had were both power supply problems ... Of course if that checks out fine, then next step would be motherboard.

Last edited by rclark; 09-07-2022 at 04:59 PM.
 
Old 09-07-2022, 08:52 PM   #5
frankbell
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You've probably checked this, but my understanding is that the most common cause of unexpected shutdowns is overheating.
 
Old 09-07-2022, 09:29 PM   #6
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I have had sudden shutdowns when there was an issue with the CPU overheating. Mine was an AIO water cooler and the pump failed. It would start and work for a few minutes then suddenly power down.

If the system comes up then after a short time suddenly goes down it seems almost certain to be overheating. Inability to restart quickly but restart after waiting some time is also a symptom.

Check the fan is running at normal speed and make sure the cooling block is not full of dust/lint. Blocked air flow or a failing fan are often causes. Overheating can also be caused by failure of the thermal paste under the cooler.
 
Old 09-08-2022, 12:26 AM   #7
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Thanks for all the replies! I'm still thinking power supply. @frankbell - this system runs very cool. Every time I look, it's basically room temp on the CPU, unless I'm transcoding video or something intensive like that. A full size ATX tower with tons of open space, good cable routing, and five case fans helps with that!

I tried to install the LiteOn power supply, but the stupid main power cable to the Mobo was just too short to reach. So I'm just going to buy another power supply, to heck with it.

When I got the old power supply out, it wasn't a Corsair like I originally thought (actually, it's my tower case that is made by Corsair). The power supply was an OCZ 600SXS 600 watt. Sorry I misstated things.

I did check all capacitors on both the Mobo and inside the power supply. All looked perfect. Man, things are packed tight inside that power supply. There's all kinds of what looks like a spray in goo glob between several of the components, I assume to keep them from touching and shorting.

---

Just found a good deal on an EVGA power supply. Overkill for my current needs, but cheaper than far lesser power supplies due to the instant rebate. Ordered!

EVGA SuperNOVA 650 P2 80+ Platinum, Fully Modular, 650 watt, 10 year warranty. $69. Normally $179. Comes with a free "Power On Self Tester", whatever that is. Also comes bundled with a free "PowerLink Adapter", which appears to be some kind of output port re-router cable management thing. If was free to add it on, so I did. Whatever it is.

Normally $179 (suggested retail) for the power supply, now with instant rebate: $69 and free shipping (direct from EVGA). The PowerLink thing-a-ma-jig is normally $10, but free with purchase of this power supply. I was originally hoping to find a 500 watt Bronze semi-modular for under $75, and then this beast popped up for even cheaper! Since I leave this computer running 24x7, a Platinum level efficiency is going to be much cheaper than a Bronze in the long run.

https://www.evga.com/products/produc...220-P2-0650-X1

If my computer problem eventually turns out not to be the power supply, oh well - I have a new power supply coming direct from EVGA anyway. Looks like it's going to take a week to get here, so it will be a while before I can report back on if it solves my computer problem. In the meantime, I am finding I love this antiX distro I'm running on my backup computer and it's neat selection of persistence modes. What a quick and easy way to to drag an old computer from the basement junk pile and have it running very effectively as my spare. I pulled all my critical files and configurations from the dead computer off of my other server that backs up all my computers nightly, including the computer that just died. Easy peazy. Good backups are a must for everyone. Make that a high priority if you haven't already. I use UrBackup.

Last edited by haertig; 09-08-2022 at 01:00 AM.
 
Old 09-08-2022, 01:01 AM   #8
mrmazda
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haertig View Post
Since I leave this computer running 24x7, a Platinum level efficiency is going to be much cheaper than a Bronze in the long run.
Very good chance the opposite will be the case. Power efficiency is generally maximum when power required is closest to actual efficiency maximum, which is typically somewhat less than maximum capacity, IIRC somewhere around 70%-85%. The less power is required, the less efficient the power supply. A 500W Bronze should be enough closer to actual demand in a system without a power hungry discrete GPU that a 250W supply could have powered, than a 650W Platinum, that the lower capacity Bronze should consume less.
 
Old 09-08-2022, 01:36 AM   #9
haertig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmazda View Post
Very good chance the opposite will be the case. Power efficiency is generally maximum when power required is closest to actual efficiency maximum, which is typically somewhat less than maximum capacity, IIRC somewhere around 70%-85%.
I did think of this when I was searching for a power supply. Efficiency varies at different loads. I found a chart that shows some typical numbers (see attachment below). This chart came from https://www.velocitymicro.com/blog/w...-it-important/

It convinced me that at 20% load - about where I'll be with 1 CPU, 1 SSD, and no graphics or any other cards installed - a Bronze is about 82% efficient and a Platinum is about 90% efficient. That is significant. But I was not just thinking about current times. I will definitely be reusing this case and power supply when I upgrade sometime in the future. The case takes a full size ATX Mobo, has six hard drive bays, three optical drive sized bays, places for five case fans, plenty wide for a high end CPU cooler, etc. So it could potentially turn into a power-sucker in the future. The only thing I would rule out is high-end graphics cards. I don't play games and don't have any need for that. So ruling out graphic cards, 650 watts should power most anything I might cram into this case, even as huge as it is.

It was a compromise choice. Way more power than I need currently, but at a fantastic price. Super long warranty. Fully modular. Very efficient (varies with load, but still efficient at any load). Allows flexibility so I can use it in more power hungry systems later. I wouldn't have bought it for full price. Even for half price. But for $69 ... I bought it!

Note: It's interesting that the highest level of efficiency - Titanium - is identical to Platinum except at 100% load. Seems like there is no use case for a Titanium unless you're running your system pedal-to-the-metal full-bore a significant portion of the time. But Titanium does kick butt at full load.
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Last edited by haertig; 09-08-2022 at 01:40 AM.
 
Old 09-08-2022, 02:02 AM   #10
mrmazda
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It's news to me that any PC PSU can deliver the same efficiency regardless of load. That image smells fishy, but, you did apparently find quite a deal!
 
Old 09-08-2022, 02:24 AM   #11
haertig
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Even if a Bronze running at 50% load could match a Platinum running at 20% load in efficiency, there are plenty of other reasons to get the Platinum. At least within the EVGA line, the Bronze's come with a 3 year warranty, the Platinums have 10 years. The Bronzes have fixed wiring (maybe some had semi-modular, but I can't remember). The Platinums are fully modular (at least the one I bought is). Plus, in order to run the Bronze at it's most efficient 50% load, you'd have to buy a lower wattage Bronze to match the efficiency of a Platinum running at a lighter 20% load. So you wouldn't have the same excess wattage with the Bronze should you find you have higher wattage needs in the future. The only thing going for the lower wattage Bronze trying to match the higher wattage Platinum might be a price advantage. But with EVGA's current instant rebate, there is no significant price difference. They have an instant rebate on the Bronze as well, but it's like $15 instead of the $110 rebate for the Platinum.

I must say, I am surprised at the size of the rebate on the one I bought. So much more than their rebates on other models. I wonder if there's something wrong with that particular power supply and they're trying to dump them. Geez, I hope not - they get good reviews. At least it's got a 10 year warranty. Worst case, $69 isn't going to send me to the poor house if the power supply is junk. So I'm happy enough with the deal.

p.s. - Now, what do you bet, I find my computers problem was the Mobo or something else, and I didn't even need a new power supply in the first place!

Last edited by haertig; 09-08-2022 at 02:26 AM.
 
Old 09-08-2022, 02:32 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmazda View Post
It's news to me that any PC PSU can deliver the same efficiency regardless of load. That image smells fishy
That chart image shows that the different power supplies (Bronze, Gold, etc.) are indeed most efficient at middle load. Their efficiency drops off at both lower and higher loads. Not by a huge amount, but a noticeable amount. The exception is the Titanium, where the efficiency keeps going up the entire time as the load goes up. There is no drop off at high load like its siblings.

[edit] Oh wait. I missed the least efficient model. It is reportedly 80% efficient across the board at all load levels. Possibly this is because you don't often see power supplies at this low of an efficiency level anymore. They're still made, but Bronze has taken over as the "economy choice" for the most part. Maybe they didn't test the below-Bronze model for different efficiencies at different loads, and just quoted a single efficiency instead since nobody probably cares. [/edit]

Last edited by haertig; 09-08-2022 at 02:36 AM.
 
Old 09-08-2022, 12:08 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haertig View Post
Just found a good deal on an EVGA power supply. Overkill for my current needs, but cheaper than far lesser power supplies due to the instant rebate. Ordered!
Good to hear the caps checked out.

Re: PS overkill. Trying to find an exact (or close) match to a dead PS for an older PC with modest power needs is tough nowadays. So it's mail order if the turnaround is acceptable. For most stores, the newer systems with the massively power-hungry graphics cards people want nowadays, it doesn't make sense to set aside shelf space for the smaller power supplies.

Hope your system gets healthy soon.
 
Old 09-08-2022, 03:45 PM   #14
mrmazda
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haertig View Post
I did check all capacitors on both the Mobo and inside the power supply. All looked perfect.
Looks don't always matter. If any are OST brand, they could be out of spec without leaking or bulging. OST represents the epitome of non-evident cap failure.
Quote:
There's all kinds of what looks like a spray in goo glob between several of the components, I assume to keep them from touching and shorting.
It's there to hold components in place in order to facilitate the soldering process.
 
Old 09-08-2022, 04:17 PM   #15
haertig
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Quote:
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If any are OST brand, they could be out of spec without leaking or bulging. OST represents the epitome of non-evident cap failure.
That's good to know. I'll set that tip into my brain (for what that is worth!) when dealing with things in the future.

As far as testing and replacing caps - I have no interest in doing that when a brand new, better, power supply is available for $69. It would be a different story if the power supply cost 10x that. Motherboards are similarly cheap (relative to other things in this world). Of course, by the time you add in the cost of a new CPU, new memory, new CPU cooler ... it can get quite a bit more expensive. If I were going to try replacing capacitors, I would do that on the motherboard where they are more spread out and easier to access. But inside a power supply? Things are so cramped in there you'd think they ran the thing through one of those car crushers they have at junk yards. Replacing components in that jungle is not for the faint of heart.

At one time, I did have the experience and knowledge (and test equipment) to do all of this. I do have a degree in Electrical Engineering. BUT, that was quite a while ago. Things have changed. Hence my questions on basic troubleshooting of my computer problem. With my old knowledge, yes, it sounded like power supply to me. But with all the communications possibly between motherboard and power supply, it certainly could be something else. That's why I asked you (assumedly) younger folks for advice. You may have more recent experience with this and could say, "Nope, those symptoms are not your power supply, that's your motherboard" and save me some time, effort and cost in my repairs. I do appreciate this, so many thanks to everyone who has responded.
 
  


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