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Old 10-29-2012, 04:55 PM   #31
Ulysses_
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Several VM's will be running a mixture of astaro gateways, several untrusted-vendor vpn tunnels/http proxies including windows xp ones, and tor clients, ideally in complete isolation from each other. One or two VM's will be for browsing, ideally capable of hd flash software rendering, one VM will be for emails, one for p2p filesharing. All VM's are disposable, regularly disposed off and reborn automatically and instantaneously, and the embryo VM's are manually updated when updates are notified.

The astaro gateway software recommends 1 GB of ram with all protection features, hopefully it works decently with less and hopefully no need will arise for more than one instance of astaro.

Last edited by Ulysses_; 10-29-2012 at 05:39 PM.
 
Old 10-29-2012, 08:13 PM   #32
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I went to some energy saving type web sites and came across that processor. Thought it was pretty good numbers for 20 watts.
 
Old 10-30-2012, 03:30 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulysses_ View Post
Why don΄t I buy a ton of ram instead, you might say. I'd hate to wait for ages to start this thing up off a slow hard disk and also ages to save it back to disk when finished.
You should buy a ton of RAM. RAM is cheap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulysses_ View Post
Where's a list of desktop cpu's that shows both scores and consumption? EDIT: oopsa, now I noticed the following.
I've never seen one, and if such a list existed there would need to be a huge number of benchmarks, as there is no single benchmark for performance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulysses_ View Post
So which are the desktop cpu's in the list? We do want them, not extremes like the 10 watt atom, and they do not all have the same wattage.
The non-desktop CPUs in that list are those ending in 'M' (for 'Mobile').

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulysses_ View Post
Does a laptop exist with raid+SSD's as fast as 850 Mbytes/s?
Not stock/'out of the box'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jefro View Post
Occasionally jefro, you suprise me. Not a bad CPU for the use, but various little niggles with it. In particular its got no onboard video. Normally, intel onboard video causes me to chuckle, but if you are going for minimum power use its not bad.

That CPU is pretty much a version of the i3-2100T or i5-2390T with the video disbaled. They are 35 watts TDP CPUs, but once you count a video card (18 watts TDP+for the lower current card) the xeon moves up to the same sort of power consumption.

I wouldnt get an i3-2100T for this sort of thing, its got no VT-d. The i5-2390 does have VT-d, but I still rather have a few move cores.

What I'd be looking for is a 4 core or 4 core/8 thread CPU, eg, an i5 or i7, low voltage/power consumption models.

i5-2500T or i5-3570T (45 watts TDP, 4 core)-
http://ark.intel.com/products/52212
http://ark.intel.com/products/65521

i7-i7-3770T (45watts TDP, 4 core/8 thread)-
http://ark.intel.com/products/65525

Theer are also 'S' models in i5 and i7 (65 watts TDP) which would be an O.K. 2nd choice. Though IMO it would be much better to get a 45 watts TDP version...if youcan find one. They are hard to get (not as hard as a xeon E3-1220L in my experience though).

One of the reasons for that is because if you get the right motherboard and CPU, you should be able to use one of the 'pico' PSUs.

http://www.mini-box.com.au/PICOPSU-1...0peak%29.html#

If you're on solar (12v) power, converting to 120/240v then back into 12v just introduces more electrical power loss.
 
Old 10-30-2012, 04:40 PM   #34
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I'm impressed with your detailed knowledge cascade9. So we have a clear winner, the i7-3770T with its onboard graphics and 45 W. What motherboard would you go for?
 
Old 10-31-2012, 03:25 AM   #35
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i7-3770T is aclear winner, 'til you try to find one. The only place in the US I could find one at was here-

http://www.pcconnection.com/IPA/Shop...404&cac=Result

$331, and its OEM/'tray' so you'll need to buy an aftermarket heatsink. The i7-3770K (unlocked) is cheaper, and comes with a heatsink....

Honestly, I'd probably still get the i7-3770T in your position, but only if I was going to use one of those pico-PSUs. They have limited power, and sometimes lower wattage power supplies have issues with 'full power' CPUs (like not starting due to low power). The lower power CPUs have less of an issue. I really think the pcio-PSUs are by far the best solution for anyone offgrid, the 12v DC-> 120/240v AC-> 12v DC conversion really hurts efficiency.

If you want to go that route, I'll do a bit of digging and see if I can dig up any similar setups running on a pico-PSU.

The hard bit would be VT-d- as far as I can tell, its disabled in most of the 'desktop' intel chipsets, and lots of the current xeon LGA 1155 boards will only run xeon and i3 CPUs, not the i7-3770T you'd like. TYAN S5517AG2NR seems to be the best option I can find now, but maybe someone else has a better idea. Hopefully TobiSGD sees this, I know he uses virtualisation a fair bit (I dont).

If for whatever reason (eg, 'my house is wired to 120v AC, and I dotn want to rewire any of it to get a 12v DC connection to my computer') you want to have a normal PSU, I'd probably ditch the i7-3770T idea. Its actually pretty easy to underclock an unlocked iX CPU, and if you do power consuption should drop to pretty much the same levels as the 'low power' CPUs.

http://www.silentpcreview.com/article1202-page1.html

Last edited by cascade9; 10-31-2012 at 03:26 AM.
 
Old 10-31-2012, 11:42 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cascade9 View Post
i7-3770T is aclear winner, 'til you try to find one. The only place in the US I could find one at was here-

http://www.pcconnection.com/IPA/Shop...404&cac=Result
Indeed. And that shop does not ship outside the US. Found another site though, where they accept orders for this cpu even though they do not have it in stock.

And yes I was definitely going to go for the pico psu, only it has to be a 24V model. If a supply exists that also works with 230V AC (in case the system ever needs to be used at a grid-connected location), that would be ideal.

Quote:
The hard bit would be VT-d- as far as I can tell, its disabled in most of the 'desktop' intel chipsets.
The TYAN S5517AG2NR seems ok, with everything onboard. Where can I find out if it has VT-d enabled?

Also the TYAN site for this mobo states "max 95W TDP", what does this mean, does it mean the chipset needs a 95W heatsink?

Last edited by Ulysses_; 10-31-2012 at 11:48 AM.
 
Old 10-31-2012, 03:28 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulysses_ View Post
And yes I was definitely going to go for the pico psu, only it has to be a 24V model. If a supply exists that also works with 230V AC (in case the system ever needs to be used at a grid-connected location), that would be ideal.
Or power a 24V pico psu from a 24V mains adaptor at locations where mains electricity is available and use just the 24V pico psu at my off-grid house.

Last edited by Ulysses_; 10-31-2012 at 03:56 PM.
 
Old 11-02-2012, 03:09 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulysses_ View Post
Indeed. And that shop does not ship outside the US. Found another site though, where they accept orders for this cpu even though they do not have it in stock.
I've heard of palces that will take orders, even if they are unsure if they will ever get the CPU.

For some reason I thought you were in the US. I might be able to find a locally avaible i7-3770T if you are comfortable posting your location.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulysses_ View Post
nd yes I was definitely going to go for the pico psu, only it has to be a 24V model. If a supply exists that also works with 230V AC (in case the system ever needs to be used at a grid-connected location), that would be ideal.
230/240v AC to 12v adapters are avaible at the pico-psu site.

http://www.mini-box.com.au/inner-pag...d=68&menuId=34

I'm trying to doble-check if the '6v to 34v wide input Intelligent Automotive DC-DC Car PC Power Supplys' listed will work for you-

http://www.mini-box.com.au/M3-ATX-HV...%20Supply.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulysses_ View Post
The TYAN S5517AG2NR seems ok, with everything onboard. Where can I find out if it has VT-d enabled?
Already checked that. I forget he page I found it at, and I'm a bit flat-out now, I'll try to check that later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulysses_ View Post
Also the TYAN site for this mobo states "max 95W TDP", what does this mean, does it mean the chipset needs a 95W heatsink?
It means that you cant install a CPU with higher than 95 watts TDP.

Its also a subtle 'not an overclockers motherboard' warning.

BTW, I'm not impressed with the 16GB limit on the TYAN S5517AG2NR. I think that 32GB max would be much better, and I'd rather have a newer chipset. Pity that intel cant get its facts straight....

Here there are intel z77 boards listed as supporting VT-d-

http://www.intel.com/support/motherb.../cs-030922.htm

But the z77 chipset page says that it doesnt support VT-d-

http://ark.intel.com/products/64024/Intel-BD82Z77-PCH

#%^#%$ intel. :/

Sorry, but I just dont have enough experience or knowledge of what you want to do to know if a 16GB + VT-d or 32GB no VT-d system would be better for your use.

Last edited by cascade9; 11-03-2012 at 07:55 AM. Reason: typos, yeah, theres probably more than the 3 I fixed
 
Old 11-02-2012, 04:29 AM   #39
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If you really need VT-d (or AMD-Vi) depends on your use case. Until now I never had a use for it, may be in the future when PCI pass-through works reliably enough to get my video-card working in a VM, but I have to try that again. If you don't need to pass through devices to the VM VT-d is not necessary and I would rather recommend to go for more RAM.
 
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Old 11-02-2012, 06:09 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cascade9 View Post
Here there are intel z77 boards listed as supporting VT-d-

http://www.intel.com/support/motherb.../cs-030922.htm

But the z77 chipset page says that it doesnt support VT-d-

http://ark.intel.com/products/64024/Intel-BD82Z77-PCH

#%^#%$ intel. :/
Someone below says intel does not sell any motherboards at all for this cpu, it will probably have to be an Asus or Gigabyte motherboard:

http://communities.intel.com/thread/...wapkw=i7-3770t

Found this shop that has the i7-3770T:

http://www.tranquilpcshop.co.uk/i7-3...ore-processor/

Wrote to them to confirm they have the cpu in stock, let's see.

They also offer a customisable build based on this cpu but it seems limited to DDR3-1333 ram, not the DDR3-1600 the cpu is capable of, and it is unknown whether VT-d is supported, here.

VT-d is supposed to make i/o in a VM as fast as in the host and the only i/o-bound operation in my virtual machines will probably be ethernet card access under bridged networking. I wonder how much can be gained with VT-d in this case. What's for sure VT-d will make the system more future-proof and sooner or later vmware's use of it will be stable enough. It would certainly be nice to be able to directly access additional SSD's at full host speed from the VMs.

Last edited by Ulysses_; 11-02-2012 at 06:32 AM.
 
Old 11-02-2012, 11:01 AM   #41
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Finally a motherboard that supports VT-d, the i7-3770T, and DDR3-1600 memory (took me ages to find this, it's the only gigabyte mobo that supports all three):

Gigabyte GA-Q77M-D2H (rev. 1.0)

It has the Q77 chipset that supports VT-d and the i7-3770T according to this.

What other factors should I be looking at?

Does the revo fit in this motherboard?

Is there a pico psu with enough power and connectors for this mobo?

What size of box should I get that is big enough for the revo and small enough for this mobo (micro atx) and pico psu?

How about this box and this fanless cooling for the cpu?

Last edited by Ulysses_; 11-02-2012 at 11:38 AM.
 
Old 11-03-2012, 08:49 AM   #42
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Thanks TobiSGD for input on VT-d.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulysses_ View Post
Someone below says intel does not sell any motherboards at all for this cpu, it will probably have to be an Asus or Gigabyte motherboard:

http://communities.intel.com/thread/...wapkw=i7-3770t
i7-3770T is offically an OEM CPU only, and so Intel doesnt list them on the retail boards they sell.

Sometiems getting OEM CPUs are easy, sometimes its really hard. Generally the newer the CPU is the harder it is to find , and the i7-3770T is pretty new.

If a few monoths time I'd expectto see more motherobards listing the i7-3770T. It should run even if its not offical supported on boards that support i7-3XXX (though at least in some cases you will get a 'unknown CPU' warning or similar on boot).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulysses_ View Post
Found this shop that has the i7-3770T:

http://www.tranquilpcshop.co.uk/i7-3...ore-processor/

Wrote to them to confirm they have the cpu in stock, let's see.
God luck. BTW, heres a neat tool to find parts and prices in the UK-

http://www.staticice.co.uk/cgi-bin/s...7-3770T&spos=3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulysses_ View Post
They also offer a customisable build based on this cpu but it seems limited to DDR3-1333 ram, not the DDR3-1600 the cpu is capable of, and it is unknown whether VT-d is supported, here.
I'd avoid it.

Those sort of systems tend to have low end motherobards with low end chipsets, e.g. H61 with 8/16GB max RAM (32GB really is worth it for your use IMO) 2 RAM slots (makes upgrading harder, current DDR3 8GB sticks are about as big as you can get chpealy and easily so even if it supported more than 16GB you couldnt install it) 4 x SATA-II ports (the better intel chipsets support 4 x SATA-II and 2 x SATA-III ports, and SATA-III is well worth having with the rise of faster and faster SSDs).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulysses_ View Post
Finally a motherboard that supports VT-d, the i7-3770T, and DDR3-1600 memory (took me ages to find this, it's the only gigabyte mobo that supports all three):

Gigabyte GA-Q77M-D2H (rev. 1.0)

It has the Q77 chipset that supports VT-d and the i7-3770T according to this.

What other factors should I be looking at?
Nice find.

I've read a few bits and pieces about VT-d and at least some manufacturers saying 'we dont support linux' if there are issues with VT-d and linux.

But that board has everything that you might be looking for (2 x SATA-III, 4 x SATA-II, known i7-3770T support, VT-d) so its the best option for you I've seen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulysses_ View Post
Does the revo fit in this motherboard?
Yes. I havent checked compatibility yet though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulysses_ View Post
Is there a pico psu with enough power and connectors for this mobo?
What size of box should I get that is big enough for the revo and small enough for this mobo (micro atx) and pico psu?[/QUOTE]

If its microATX, you will need at least a microATX case. A full aTX case will also work.

If you get a microATX board and prefer big cases with lots of space, get an ATX case. If you prefer a smaller case which takes up less room on your desk/floor, get an microATX case. It wont make any difference to the operation of your system.

The pico PSUs are tiny. There are various models, and I'm trying to dig up more info on exactly how much power you would need. If it was an older i5-2500T setup, I could find out exactly what people have used in the past, as if you know where to look there are a few people running i5-2500T and similar CPUs with pico-PSUs.

If you wanted to buy right now, and be farily sure that your new motherboard/CPU/RAM would boot, I'd get this-

Quote:
M4-ATX-HV

- 220 Watts (275 Watts peak)
- Optimized for 24V systems
- 20/24 pin ATX, 6-34V wide input
http://www.mini-box.com.au/M4-ATX-HV...20output.html#

And I'd probably buy one of these to go with it-

http://www.mini-box.com.au/M4-ATX%20Enclosure.html

In many ways I'd prefer to spec the 95watt model, found here-

http://www.mini-box.com.au/M3-ATX-HV...%20Supply.html

But I cant be sure that the 95 watt model will boot your system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulysses_ View Post
How about this box and this fanless cooling for the cpu?
I wouldnt get either of them.

Nofan CS-80 Fanless ATX case has several bad things against it IMO. I'm not fond of huge 'mesh' cases, I prefer sealed cases with airfliters to stop dust getting in. The 'mesh' cases have always seem to be asking for dust problems.

Its toolless...some people see this as a plus, I dont. Nothign worse than rattling bits of plastic when with tradional tooled cases you can screw things down good and tight.

Ugly (IMO anyway) and expensive.

Nofan CR-95C Copper IcePipe Fanless, also ugly (but hey, my taste is suspect) expensive, and nothing amazing for the rather 'meh' review I saw.

Here is what I'd consider instead-

Lian-li PC-A04
http://www.lian-li.com/v2/en/product...ndex=63&g=spec

69 quid here-
http://www.advancetec.co.uk/acatalog...X-Chassis.html

Full aluminum case, much nicer looking IMO anyway, and a lot cheaper.

Noctua NH-U12P (or Noctua NH-U12P SE)-
http://www.noctua.at/main.php?show=p...s_id=31&lng=en

50 quid here-
http://www.advancetec.co.uk/acatalog...PU-Cooler.html

While it might be temping to go fanless, most cases have ATX PSUs with fans in them. So your typical 'fanless' system still has some airflow though the system. If you are using a fanless pico-PSU, you wont get the airflow from the PSU fan, which can make a difference.

Noctua are very good at quiet fans, the Noctua NH-U12P SE comes with 2 of them. Runnign 1 fan on it would keep your CPU cool, and will be very quiet indeed. Possibly as good as totally fanless, depending on how good your ears are, where the fan is on the heatsink (front or rear) and what speed the fans are running at.

Last edited by cascade9; 11-03-2012 at 08:52 AM.
 
Old 11-03-2012, 11:15 AM   #43
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Thanks.
Quote:
The pico PSUs are tiny. There are various models, and I'm trying to dig up more info on exactly how much power you would need. If it was an older i5-2500T setup, I could find out exactly what people have used in the past, as if you know where to look there are a few people running i5-2500T and similar CPUs with pico-PSUs.
Here's a site that tries to calculate how much power is needed:

http://www.thermaltake.outervision.com/Power

Let's go for up to 32GB ram, a 4TB mechanical hard drive and the revo. And a dvd-rw drive. And a bluetooth usb device. And a wifi usb device. Maybe a second network adapter too in the future, perhaps one that is faster than gigabit ones. And a firewire external drive that is powered from two usb plugs (got one).

Looks like the bigger pico psu is the way to go. Just out of curiosity, is the 220W one less efficient at 95W, than the 95W one maxed out at 95W?

Certainly much nicer looking. Looking at the spec it says:

VGA Card length: 370mm
PSU length: 220mm
CPU cooler height: 140mm

whereas the spec of the Noctua cpu cooler says:

Heatsink Dimensions: 126 x 158 x 71 mm (WxHxD)

so is the case not large enough for the heatsink?

Checked the revo drive and it seems to have plenty of space around it in this case, here are the revo dimensions from here:

Width 167.64mm
Depth 15.25mm
Height 98.42mm

Quote:
I prefer sealed cases with airfliters to stop dust getting in. The 'mesh' cases have always seem to be asking for dust problems.
Considering we only have to cool a 45W cpu, is a fanless cpu cooler an option at all, given a fanless pico psu and the sealed case?

What about liquid cpu cooling or passive cooling with fins external to the case?

What about a decent-looking case with many ventilation holes that is blow-cleaned by myself every few months?

Here are two cases that seem large enough for the Noctua cpu cooler but not too large. Any of them ok with the pico psu etc?

http://www.lian-li.com/v2/en/product...s_index=62&g=f
http://www.lian-li.com/v2/en/product...s_index=69&g=f

Is any additional cooling needed for the revo drive that consumes 8.3W, and for a 4TB mechanical drive? Should I go for a couple of laptop hard drives instead, that consume 1.7W each and raid them, rather than a desktop 4TB drive?

Last edited by Ulysses_; 11-04-2012 at 04:16 AM.
 
Old 11-05-2012, 05:23 AM   #44
cascade9
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Damn and blast, I though that my post last night had gone through. User error. :/

Oh well, here is the shorter, non-referenced version.

PSU calculators are OKish, if you remember that they always overstate the real power requirments by as much as 25% or more.

The Noctua NH-U12P SE might not fit in the Lian-li PC-A04. While Lian-li say '140m max heatsink height' that is not really true (its sort of true, if you want a to have a heatsink with a top mounted fan blowing down and have a inch or so clearance between the case and fan. I know that you can get heatsinks up to 156mm in there (Titan Fenrir).

http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/cas...-a04-preview/3

For some reason I thought that the Noctua NH-U12P SE was the same height as the Titan Fenrir....missed by 2mm. It would probably fit, just, but not worth risking buying one in case it doesnt.

I'd get a different heatsink rather than changing case. The PC-V700 is full ATX, and huge for ATX, the PC-V650 is wayyyyy to expensive for what it is. If you wanted to stick with noctua, either a NH-U9B SE2 -
http://www.noctua.at/main.php?show=p...2&lng=en&set=1

Or a NH-C14
http://www.noctua.at/main.php?show=p...7&lng=en&set=2

Fanless isnt an option IMO. You might get away with it, or you might slow cook your CPU.

If you like the mesh cases then you can always just not worry about dust and blow it out every now and again...its slightly riskier (compressors can blow water), and wouldnt be enough to allow you to run totally fanless IMO.

A case with passive cooling with fins external to the case can be done...similar problems to totally fanless, expensive and hard to engineer without a fair bit of experience.

There were some 'off the shelf' fanless cases, like the Zalman TNN (Totally No Noise) that could handle your setup, but they are huge (30KG+!) expensive (US $1,000+) and are out of production and impossible to find new.

Water cooling, dont bother, its not worth it for your use.

A decent (e.g. noctua) 92mm/120mm/140mm fan running at 5v (low RPM) on a aftermarket heatsink will keep your CPU in very safe levels, provide a bit of ariflow around the case to help out with cooling chipset, RAM and other stuff in the case, and would be very quiet if not totally silent.

I wouldnt get laptop HDDs in RAID to lower power consumption. Either you will have RAID0 (risky) or RAID5/6 that will require 3/4 drives minimum. Its a lot more stuffing around for limited gains. If yo were going to RAID for speed and power consumption, I'd get rid of the revo and RAID some SSDs.

BTW, IMO you could be better off with a few SSDs in single drive setups instead of the revo. Depending on how you setup your data. Yes, the revo has 'good numbers' (though I still disagree about with you Ulysses_ about how good they are), but 1 fast drive with multipule demands can have worse performance than 2 slightly slower drives with lower demands.

Last edited by cascade9; 11-06-2012 at 03:18 AM.
 
Old 11-05-2012, 10:44 AM   #45
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Luckily the 125mm tall NH-U9B SE2 is also significantly quieter than the bigger NH-U12P SE. A bit of a paradox here, smaller fans are usually noisier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cascade9 View Post
I wouldnt get laptop HDDs in RAID to lower power consumption. Either you qwill have RAID0 (risky) or RAID5/6 that will require 3/4 drives minimum. Its a lot more stuffing around for limited gains.
Can't I put 2.5" drives in 3.5" slots?

Quote:
If yo were going to RAID for speed and power consumption, I'd get rid of the revo and rAID soem SSDs.
The concern with raid performance is that it is a journey into the unknown, until you buy the hardware or find someone online who has tested the same motherboard and a given set of SSD's, and chances are their SSDs are not high-end and the scores are not as high as the revo's. Whereas the revo with its onboard raid-0 is much more predictable.

So the motherboard's raid was only mentioned to make a higher capacity with mechanical hard disks. Do you have any recommendations for mechanical drives to make 4TB or more? Or a single drive, but I can't find a low-wattage 2.5" hard drive at that capacity.

No reply from that shop regarding i7-3770T availability. You said the i7-3770K can be made to run slower in order to lower the wattage. The i7-3770K is a supported cpu for the motherboard, does the motherboard allow under-clocking it? Is that something that can be done with a script while the system is on?

Last edited by Ulysses_; 11-07-2012 at 12:53 PM.
 
  


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