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Old 03-19-2013, 01:43 PM   #1
tobindax
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Is there a good reason Linus et al. haven't supported windows drivers in the kernel?


Even if they are slower or even if they are for a certain version of windows only. I wonder why it's technically impossible. Unless they do it out of policy. If yes, I wonder if one can hack it in with a fork of the tree.

Last edited by tobindax; 03-19-2013 at 01:56 PM.
 
Old 03-19-2013, 03:09 PM   #2
TB0ne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tobindax View Post
Even if they are slower or even if they are for a certain version of windows only. I wonder why it's technically impossible.
It isn't, which is why ndiswrapper has been around for quite a while now.
http://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawik...itle=Main_Page

But why would you need them?
 
Old 03-19-2013, 03:18 PM   #3
tobindax
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Originally Posted by TB0ne View Post
It isn't, which is why ndiswrapper has been around for quite a while now.
http://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawik...itle=Main_Page

But why would you need them?
Because it's really sad the X-Fi USB cards are not (fully) working (with 3D audio) on linux (without going through laggy vms).

Once you've seen real Binaural audio, you can't go back.

PS. It's partly software-based, but who cares, new CPUs don't even notice it.

Last edited by tobindax; 03-19-2013 at 03:19 PM.
 
Old 03-19-2013, 05:38 PM   #4
jefro
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The original writers of ndiswrapper did envision all sorts of windows drivers working in linux. That work was never completed. It should be possible to use any windows driver within the framework of ndiswrapper.

By the very fact that linux is not windows, you can't expect any windows driver to work in linux. They are not remotely the same OS.

See this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_...#Linux_support
 
Old 03-20-2013, 07:28 AM   #5
tobindax
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Yeah those are not USB. The USB cards have a different driver. Sure it's partly software based but who cares, newest CPUs don't even notice it and the result is amazing. Result #2: Impossible to use linux at all if such amazing features are inaccessible (without laggy vms or writing the support yourself, but you may not know how).

edit: (they work in basic output mode but that's useless, one might as well use an onboard card then.)
 
Old 03-20-2013, 11:47 AM   #6
TobiSGD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tobindax View Post
Yeah those are not USB. The USB cards have a different driver. Sure it's partly software based but who cares, newest CPUs don't even notice it and the result is amazing. Result #2: Impossible to use linux at all if such amazing features are inaccessible (without laggy vms or writing the support yourself, but you may not know how).

edit: (they work in basic output mode but that's useless, one might as well use an onboard card then.)
I would see it a different way: Those soundcards may be amazing, but if they don't work in Linux I am not interested even remotely in buying them, although I also run a Windows installation on my main machine. Simple rule of the market, if they don't support the OS of my choice with drivers I won't support them with buying their hardware and rather put my money into a company that does support me.
If you want them to work in Linux you have three options:
1. Ask the manufacturer for Linux support. tell them clearly that you won't buy the hardware without being supported in Linux. The more users do that, the better.
2. Write a driver yourself. Will of course be hard if you aren't a developer or not capable of reverse-engineering the functions needed by the hardware.
3. Pay someone to do #2.

Or in short, back to your original question:
Quote:
Is there a good reason Linus et al. haven't supported windows drivers in the kernel?
Yes, there is and it is rather simple: Linux is not Windows, so why should they support Windows drivers? They also don't support MacOS drivers. If a company is not interested in supporting Linux why should Linus et al. being interested in supporting them?
 
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Old 03-20-2013, 01:05 PM   #7
haertig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tobindax View Post
Once you've seen real Binaural audio, you can't go back.
I must admit, I've never seen audio before. My eyes must be defective.

It appears you want to first pick your soundcard as priority above everything else. That is fine. Next you need to pick the hardware and software that will support your primary goal, which is to use that specific soundcard. In this case, it appears to be Windows per your description. So buy Windows - problem solved. Actually, it is the soundcard that requires proprietary drivers that are only made available for Windows by the soundcard manufacturer, not something inherantly better about Windows. But the details don't really matter. You want to use that specific soundcard, so you have to have Windows based on what the manufacturer of the card allows. So buy Windows.
 
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Old 03-21-2013, 03:22 AM   #8
tobindax
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Yeah ok, sarcasm aside, you really won't go back once you've seen binaural audio like the CMSS-3D of Creative :-) Especially if you're the common lone user with headphones a lot of the time.

Luckily, there MAY be support for the higher end PCI models (not exactly sure about CMSS-3D but probably, look it up).

edit: and I heard that there may be some external hardware solutions that don't even need the OS (those also may make you 'see' audio :-P)

edit: I heard hrtf of mplayer and it was buggy and not much different in the first place. They had also 'bs2b', though I don't know if that even does anything or anything noticeable.

Last edited by tobindax; 03-21-2013 at 03:26 AM.
 
Old 03-21-2013, 05:49 AM   #9
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I still would recommend to contact the Creative support to ask them why there is no Linux support, especially with the growing gamer market for Linux and things like the Steambox (running Linux) comming in the future. If enough people do that maybe they will change their mind and provide Linux support.
 
Old 03-21-2013, 08:33 AM   #10
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I think you should ask Linus himself, I think he will give you a very colorful response, which I would agree with.
 
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Old 03-21-2013, 10:17 AM   #11
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Screw that! It's time companies start to think about the overall compatibility of their products, not just Windows. If Apple hadn't caught on fire in the last decade, there would be even less interest in shifting away from M*soft on corporations' part. Take OpenGL as an example, it is compatible with all major OS's, yet game developers, chip designers (**cough**nvidia**cough**) and other related industries/companies, have all stuck with adhering to what M*soft decides is the correct way to do things. Now that more and more people are dropping Windows, especially with Win8 being highly unpopular, there is NO REASON for this trend to continue!

While I can understand the short-term benefits of facilitating the use of a broad spectrum of products to their *full* potential, bending over to M*soft while they are gradually sinking will, ultimately, in no way result in the best solution for anyone besides M*soft! They need to adapt to the changing nature of the industry and market; and if manufacturers and vendors continue to suck on their teets, like nvidia and others, I hope they follow them to the abyss (**not probable, but wishful thinking ).

I own a laptop with Optimus technology. It's been a pain in the ass, until recently when open-source solutions were devised to incorporate their not-so-optimum technology. If these companies were smart enough they'd realise by following a more diverse/broad-spectrum model, they could have a great source of crowd-sourcing, almost-instant feedback, similar to the trend in android; it could actually drive their development focus towards the next trending/useful/powerful markets, instead of following one OS and one company's strategy.
 
Old 03-21-2013, 10:50 AM   #12
jcullen24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H_TeXMeX_H View Post
I think you should ask Linus himself, I think he will give you a very colorful response, which I would agree with.
I wanted to add my two cents, Linus addressed this issue directly. The place for support bianaries are not in the kernal. I don't know if he addressed drivers specifically but the same thought process would encompass drivers in the kernal.

You want to keep the kernal, or core operating system as pristine as possible for performance issues. Then you can add whatever bloat you want to the user area.

I'm a gamer and loathe the idea of adding steam to my LINUX box LOL.


Last edited by jcullen24; 03-21-2013 at 11:21 AM.
 
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Old 03-22-2013, 02:29 PM   #13
tobindax
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Originally Posted by jcullen24 View Post
I wanted to add my two cents, Linus addressed this issue directly. The place for support bianaries are not in the kernal. I don't know if he addressed drivers specifically but the same thought process would encompass drivers in the kernal.

You want to keep the kernal, or core operating system as pristine as possible for performance issues. Then you can add whatever bloat you want to the user area.

I'm a gamer and loathe the idea of adding steam to my LINUX box LOL.

To be honest, knowing linus all these years, ( I mean his tone, not personally), he seems like a guy that while he'd like the kernel definitely clean, more or less, he would be ok to have a driver that is generic, giving userland the ability to just load whatever to it.
 
Old 03-22-2013, 02:47 PM   #14
jefro
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"It's time companies start to think about the overall compatibility of their products,"

It would be time only if companies made money off of this idea. In most cases, they do not have a financial reason to do more work. They have no desire to let the competition get detailed access to their products. When an opensourced driver is offered, it also exposes the hardware to reverse design.
 
Old 03-24-2013, 09:27 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tobindax View Post
Yeah ok, sarcasm aside, you really won't go back once you've seen binaural audio like the CMSS-3D of Creative :-) Especially if you're the common lone user with headphones a lot of the time.
Have you actaully tired any of the other guys sound cards? Cause your 1st sentance reads like you work for creative.

IIRC the X-Fi USB is another of the creative 'rebranded' cards....its actually got the CA01XXX sound chip, which is the same basic series as from the Audigy SE (S*** Edition).

Even if creative had decent drivers and support linux, I'd still avoid any of the Creative cards. Creative are IMO one of the worst manufacturers around, they are totally hopeless and love creating misleading branding.
 
  


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