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Having trouble installing a piece of hardware? Want to know if that peripheral is compatible with Linux?

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Old 01-21-2008, 12:19 PM   #1
dmaavrigdo
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Unhappy Crippled by vista?


Will i suffer a performance penalty if i run linux on hardware that is vista drm compliant?I'm worried that if a buy a new "Vista compatible" laptop it might run slower and have less functionality than my 2004 model.
 
Old 01-21-2008, 12:30 PM   #2
indienick
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I didn't know DRM extended into "Hitler chips" (hardware locks)...

Vista compliant, I would assume, just meant the particular piece of hardware is the newest, fully supported piece of hardware.
 
Old 01-21-2008, 12:50 PM   #3
dmaavrigdo
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Angry For example

As part of the bus-protection scheme, devices are required to implement AES-128 encryption in order to receive content from Vista. This has to be done via a hardware decryption engine on the graphics chip, which would typically be implemented by throwing away a GPU rendering pipeline or two to make room for the AES engine (nVidia did this in their low-end G84 variant of the G80 GPU, while saving the G80's silicon for as many rendering pipelines (well, technically speaking they're stream processors now) as they can fit. Discarding GPU features to make way for content-protection hardware seems a sub-optimal business model for graphics device vendors.
 
Old 01-21-2008, 12:52 PM   #4
b0uncer
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You can ask the seller about that; I'm fairly sure monopoly laws have something to say about "general" (i.e. non-Microsoft manufactured) hardware being slaved to one operating system only. I agree with indienick that "Vista compliant" means "supported fully by Vista" rather than "only works with Vista". It would be fairly difficult to make it run with Vista only, or have performance issues with anything but Vista, and in addition probably illegal in many places around the world. But in any case you can ask the seller who should know what s/he is selling; and when you are about to buy, you can always (read: unless you can, hop to another shop) either ask to test the computer - many shops have "showcase computers" available to play with - with a LiveCD if it runs all right, or make a deal that you can test the machine at home and if it won't work with your preferred OS, you can return it. I know not every seller accepts this latter method, last time I was buying a graphics card the seller told me it can't be returned unless there is a flaw that is clearly the fault of the manufacturer, because (so he said) some folks buy gfx cards, then overclock them to see how much they can be overclocked, and if it burns, try to bring it back for a new device saying it just broke off. Well, maybe he's right about those, but a complete computer is another matter..and if you buy one online here, law guarantees you 14 days time during which you can send it back and have your money returned, as long as the product is in the same condition as when you received it. That means you could basically order a computer, test it with a livecd and if it didn't fit, return it.

I'd say take a livecd of your preferred distribution along you to the shop and ask if you can boot it and run some tests to see if sound, video etc. work. If they don't work out of the box, it can usually be fixed, but at least if everything seems to work, it's a good sign. A good shop understands that it's of no harm, and they usually have the show-off computers anyway, so there's no problem. A bad shop tries to sell you something you can't see nor touch beforehand, and that's a shop you should leave as soon as you see it.
 
Old 01-21-2008, 01:12 PM   #5
indienick
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I'm pretty sure the only way you can get away with proprietary hardware, is if you, the provider of the OS, provide the hardware too. Think pre-OpenSolaris SUN; I have a bunch of old Ultra SPARC 1 boxes floating about my house, and they're all complete with proprietary hardware, pins and connectors.

They're wonderful machines, the only downside is the cost of the hardware and cables.

But to reiterate, I'm almost certain it's against some law to force hardware manufacturers (that aren't a subsidary of your company) to provide hardware compatible for your OS (without any effort on your part). Not to mention, it's a logically stupid business move; hardware manufacturers would raise an eyebrow, and flip the company the middle finger.

Last edited by indienick; 01-21-2008 at 01:15 PM.
 
Old 01-21-2008, 01:14 PM   #6
dmaavrigdo
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It might work but..

The way i read it the newer might be slower than the old version.

"the need to develop, test, and integrate encryption engines into audio/video devices will only add to their cost and the fact that they're losing precious performance in order to accommodate Vista's content protection will make gamers less than happy."

And i don't expect that my local high street computer store employee would even understand the question.
 
Old 01-21-2008, 01:28 PM   #7
indienick
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HAHA - most Microsoft sales associates don't even know the answer to that question! Last January, I was in Toronto, and Microsoft had a really nice ice house set up to flash pre-releases of Vista.

Being the Linux snob I am (har har), I hazed them with all sorts of questions - everything from DRM to the kernel. They eventually gave up on me, and pointed me to ask some fat guy sipping his hot chocolate - he looked like an old-school UNIX geek who sold out to Microsoft. However, he tried to answer my simple (by day-to-day Linux user standards) questions, and failed miserably.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Discussion: Me vs. Fat, Aging Microsoft Shill
FAMS: "Well, with Vista, your computer will run faster - the kernel's gone under a complete rewrite. It will make full use of 64-bit processors, which in turn will prevent you from getting viruses."

ME: "...but the processor has absolutely nothing to do with the number of viruses you acquire. Rewriting the kernel may help, but if Microsoft still clings to its kernel model - against the UNIX/Linux kernel model - and its default user account creation process, it'll still be suceptable to viruses."

FAMS: "You're a Linux user, aren't you?"

ME: *smiling, nodding* "Mhmm."

FAMS: *mutters "shit" under his breath* "Well....well....well you can still get a virus running Linux!!!!"

ME: "Yeah, but it's kind of hard to do for Linux - I don't want to take any more of your time than is necessary, so I won't explain - but then again, who would want to write a virus for Linux? Linux has a community about itself, not the elitist Tech. Support/End User relationship Microsoft has with its customers..."

FAMS: "...I have to get back to work."

ME: "Enjoy the hot chocolate!" *beaming smile, and cheerful wave goodbye*
Hey, if they had been polite, I wouldn't have grilled them as I did. I didn't provide the complete conversation (as it would have been the size of a cult novel). But a simple "I don't know..." would have sufficed; don't insult me and try to incorrectly flap your way out of it.
 
Old 01-22-2008, 12:57 PM   #8
H_TeXMeX_H
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Here's a rather good article on this or similar issues, it's rather technical tho:
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut00...ista_cost.html

I think it won't affect Linux performance at the moment. It only really affects performance while running Vi$ta. I think the encrypted pipelines will only be used when playing the DRM'd content on a DRM'd OS, right ?
 
Old 01-27-2008, 08:01 AM   #9
.dllmigraine
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmaavrigdo View Post
Will i suffer a performance penalty if i run linux on hardware that is vista drm compliant?I'm worried that if a buy a new "Vista compatible" laptop it might run slower and have less functionality than my 2004 model.

What type of virtualization are you using, or is a dual boot system?
My experience fixing the Vista OS has been profitable, but not a very
good OS. I would go back to XP if I were you. It's really a shame when
these companies distribute computers with OEM with preinstalled crap.
 
Old 01-27-2008, 12:18 PM   #10
H_TeXMeX_H
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Quote:
Originally Posted by .dllmigraine View Post
It's really a shame when
these companies distribute computers with OEM with preinstalled crap.
No, it's a shame that people buy them without so much as a complaint.
 
Old 01-28-2008, 11:25 AM   #11
.dllmigraine
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H_TeXMeX_H View Post
No, it's a shame that people buy them without so much as a complaint.
Agreed. But then again most consumers don't know what the acronym OS means,
much less Linux distributions.
 
Old 01-28-2008, 12:47 PM   #12
indienick
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Then again, try finding a computer (desktop or laptop) without a preloaded OS on it, period.

Places like eBay, and Craigslist don't count, as people have already purchased the units, and any resale isn't tracked back to the company of origin.

At this point, if you want a decent, brand new system without an OS, you would try places like NCIX, or TigerDirect and build your own PC, or order a refurbished one; and even still, they might try to tack on a pre-installed OS, or staple some Windows install CDs to the box as it gets shipped.
 
Old 01-28-2008, 02:30 PM   #13
H_TeXMeX_H
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If you want a desktop, build your own (I recently did) and the HDD was clean when I got it, no OS, no anything.

If you want a laptop try here:
http://xtremenotebooks.com/
OS is optional. That's where I'm getting my next laptop ... although it is a bit expensive.
 
Old 01-29-2008, 05:55 AM   #14
dmaavrigdo
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Not asking about the OS!

I was asking about hardware that microsoft has demanded be changed to operate with vista drm .Encrypted channels on video/sound cards etc.
As H_texmex_h said read the following http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut00...ista_cost.html

How do i know whether the hardware i buy has been crippled at the request of m$?
 
  


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