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Old 10-03-2018, 11:02 AM   #91
ondoho
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https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-45664640
i finally managed to read this article in its entirety.
i subscribe to everything said therein.
it came out ~5 days after i became aware of "the issue".
in the end he says we have to wait for the kernel summit in edinburgh this (?) month, where they will discuss more.
i'd still like to see some news (serious, not just flaming) on this, esp. from kroah-hartman and other kernel dev bigshots.
of course i can always look at ehmke's twitter feed where they're constantly patting themselves on the shoulder, saying "we won" - but that's not news either.
 
Old 10-05-2018, 11:14 AM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ondoho View Post
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-45664640
i finally managed to read this article in its entirety.
i subscribe to everything said therein.
it came out ~5 days after i became aware of "the issue".
in the end he says we have to wait for the kernel summit in edinburgh this (?) month, where they will discuss more.
i'd still like to see some news (serious, not just flaming) on this, esp. from kroah-hartman and other kernel dev bigshots.
of course i can always look at ehmke's twitter feed where they're constantly patting themselves on the shoulder, saying "we won" - but that's not news either.
Do note that Linus' absent from the original planned summit is what triggered this all ...
Next summit is rescheduled (to meed his vacation plans) in Edinburgh at October 22, while the original was in Vancouver (November 13).

Anyway, I do hope and expect that some changes/+clarifications (especially on the legal parts) in the current CoC will happen.

https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pi...er/005308.html
https://events.linuxfoundation.org/e...l-summit-2018/
https://events.linuxfoundation.org/e...t-europe-2018/

Last edited by jens; 10-05-2018 at 11:36 AM.
 
Old 10-09-2018, 05:18 AM   #93
cynwulf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jens View Post
PS: Since you mentionned Debian in a later post, keep in mind that we do have CoC as well:
https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct

While I don't really like those things, I do like point 2:
I assume you're a Debian developer or maintainer?

While that is a "code of conduct", it's an entirely different document to the Linux or FreeBSD CoCs. It has different aims and is very specific to the project.

It does not for example contain this kind of thing:
Quote:
Originally Posted by From Linux CoC
Examples of unacceptable behavior by participants include:
+
+* The use of sexualized language or imagery and unwelcome sexual attention or
+ advances
+* Trolling, insulting/derogatory comments, and personal or political attacks
+* Public or private harassment
+* Publishing othersí private information, such as a physical or electronic
+ address, without explicit permission
+* Other conduct which could reasonably be considered inappropriate in a
+ professional setting
Quote:
Originally Posted by From FreeBSD CoC
* Comments that reinforce systemic oppression related to gender, gender identity and expression, sexual orientation, disability, mental illness, neurodiversity, physical appearance, body size, age, race, or religion.
* Unwelcome comments regarding a person's lifestyle choices and practices, including those related to food, health, parenting, drugs, and employment.
* Deliberate misgendering.
* Deliberate use of "dead" or rejected names.
* Gratuitous or off-topic sexual images or behaviour in spaces where they're not appropriate.
* Physical contact and simulated physical contact (e.g., textual descriptions like "*hug*" or "*backrub*") without consent or after a request to stop.
* Threats of violence.
* Incitement of violence towards any individual, including encouraging a person to commit suicide or to engage in self-harm.
* Deliberate intimidation.
* Stalking or following.
* Harassing photography or recording, including logging online activity for harassment purposes.
* Sustained disruption of discussion.
* Unwelcome sexual attention.
* Pattern of inappropriate social contact, such as requesting/assuming inappropriate levels of intimacy with others.
* Continued one-on-one communication after requests to cease.
* Deliberate "outing" of any private aspect of a person's identity without their consent except as necessary to protect vulnerable people from intentional abuse.
* Publication of non-harassing private communication without consent.
* Publication of non-harassing private communication with consent but in a way that intentionally misrepresents the communication (e.g., removes context that changes the meaning).
* Knowingly making harmful false claims about a person.
It does however contain the clause:
Quote:
Originally Posted by From Debian CoC
Disagreement is no excuse for poor behaviour or personal attacks
The Debian project doesn't seem to find it necessary to have a bullet point list of dos and don'ts in it's CoC. It does not seem to see the need to headline its list with all kind of "do nots" relating to the treatment of transgender people or to sexual harassment.

The difference is that both the Linux and FreeBSD CoCs come entirely from activists with a feminist and/or transgender agenda, whereas the Debian one does not.
 
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Old 10-10-2018, 12:57 AM   #94
ondoho
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^ and i daresay that neither communities in this comparison are better or worse, more or less toxic or politically incorrect or whatever.
 
Old 10-10-2018, 01:49 AM   #95
fido_dogstoyevsky
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Browsing around some of the BSD sites I found a set of Rules (not "Code") of Conduct that I like on the TrueOS site:

Quote:
We believe code is truly agnostic and embrace inclusiveness regardless of a personís individual beliefs. As such we only ask the following when participating in TrueOS public events and digital forums:

Treat each other with respect and professionalism.
Leave personal and TrueOS unrelated conversations to other channels.

In other words, itís all about the code. Users who feel the above rules have been violated in some way can register a complaint with [email address for reporting problems]
https://www.trueos.org/rulesofconduct/

Brief, no nonsense, and really easy to understand.
 
Old 10-12-2018, 10:31 AM   #96
jens
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cynwulf View Post
...

The difference is that both the Linux and FreeBSD CoCs come entirely from activists with a feminist and/or transgender agenda, whereas the Debian one does not.
Honestly, I agree a 100%
Thing is, having a CoC without any stipulations isn't better.

Guess why Google stopped doing that?
... it's even _more_ prone to be abused in legal cases ...

So ... Yes, I'm hoping the next[0] kernel summit (with Linus) will focus on _that_ (mostly "the legal stuff" and change it where necessary).

[0] that's not tomorrow but 22-24 (this whole thing is a mess).

Last edited by jens; 10-12-2018 at 11:51 AM.
 
Old 10-22-2018, 08:40 AM   #97
jens
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And ... He's back

From the 4.19 release announcement:
Quote:
Originally Posted by greg k-h
...

These past few months has been a tough one for our community, as it is
our community that is fighting from within itself, with prodding from
others outside of it. Don't fall into the cycle of arguing about those
"others" in the "Judean People's Front" when we are the "We're the
People's Front of Judea!" That is the trap that countless communities
have fallen into over the centuries. We all share the same goal, let us
never loose sight of that.

So here is my plea to everyone out there. Let's take a day or two off,
rest, relax with friends by sharing a meal, recharge, and then get back
to work, to help continue to create a system that the world has never
seen the likes of, together.

Personally, I'm going to take my own advice. I'll be enjoying this week
in Edinburgh with many other kernel developers, drinking some good
whiskey, and taking some time off of reading email, by spending it with
the great friends I have made in this community.

And with that, Linus, I'm handing the kernel tree back to you. You can
have the joy of dealing with the merge window


thanks,

greg k-h
https://lkml.org/lkml/2018/10/22/184

Last edited by jens; 10-22-2018 at 08:41 AM.
 
Old 10-22-2018, 03:10 PM   #98
hydrurga
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jens View Post
And ... He's back

From the 4.19 release announcement:


https://lkml.org/lkml/2018/10/22/184
Hopefully if he's in Edinburgh, he'll be drinking some good whisky rather than Irish or American whiskey.
 
Old 10-22-2018, 03:17 PM   #99
Turbocapitalist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jens View Post
And ... He's back
And all properly chipped or whatever was done.
 
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Old 10-23-2018, 10:21 AM   #100
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So am I the only one who's not buying into this official PR statement of "we've suddenly all realised we've been arseholes all along and need to change" thing...?
 
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Old 10-23-2018, 11:11 AM   #101
Habitual
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Navel gazing time is over!
 
Old 10-23-2018, 11:29 AM   #102
hazel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habitual View Post
I don't like the look of that! If they accept Ehmke's CoC, doesn't that allow good coders to be forced out for trivial reasons, in favour of second rate ones who use the approved terms? Then you end up with a "safe space" which is only safe because nothing is going on there.
 
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Old 10-23-2018, 03:11 PM   #103
ChuangTzu
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Not good. Wouldn't be surprised if someone uses this to "reorganize" the group, ousting the "trouble makers", as hazel mentioned ^.

I think Linus' first post should be: "Hi all I'm back and I am Fu*king nice now. If you think I am not then Fu*k You, see I didn't spell it out."
 
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Old 10-23-2018, 04:51 PM   #104
fido_dogstoyevsky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cynwulf View Post
So am I the only one who's not buying into this official PR statement of "we've suddenly all realised we've been arseholes all along and need to change" thing...?
No.

I, for one, have sadly started the migration process (which looks like taking some time).
 
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Old 10-23-2018, 05:26 PM   #105
RickDeckard
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cynwulf View Post
Physical contact and simulated physical contact (e.g., textual descriptions like "*hug*" or "*backrub*") without consent or after a request to stop.
Really? The day I ask a nobody who doesn't contribute anything and holds no position, someone who I don't have physical co-location with, for consent to type something out on my own keyboard is the day I colonize the sun. They're only pixels. I'm scared that at this rate someone's going to place "cloud rape" alongside "stare rape" in the Actually-Is-A-Thing Book.
 
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