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Old 05-16-2003, 11:49 PM   #31
2damncommon
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Quote:
Its simply because each Linux distribution behaves differently hence there is no standard.
Ok.
So I understand you are saying this is bad.
Quote:
Why is it a pain in the neck to install MOzilla Plugins on Linux whereas there is no trouble with that on WIndows.
Hello.
They are two different operating systems.
They are not the same.

Why are free software developers threatened with lawsuits when they try to improve Linux support for proprietory devices and software.

Hello. They are two different operating systems with two completely different outlooks on what is important.

And trying to say everything always works perfectly in the Windows world is a load of baloney.

'Nuff said.
 
Old 05-18-2003, 06:49 PM   #32
Vlad_M
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Quote:
Originally posted by lokee
You were talking about simple installs, well I know nothing simpler than installing from RPMs!

Just a simple : rpm -ivh pkg and voila...
Wanna disinstall? rpm -e pkg

Can you do that with InstallShield? NO!
You have to click lots of buttons for nothing!

As for DE, I like the way it is: you have the choice(unlike in Windows)...
Heh...this is a little misleading. The least you can do is *mention* the possible dependency freakfest that can ensue, and tell the dude about APT4RPM.

But yes, when it works RPM is very nice.
 
Old 05-18-2003, 06:56 PM   #33
Vlad_M
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Quote:
Originally posted by chem1
2 more points

1) Linux sometimes refuses to work the way it should. Example:
I have changed my XFree86Config file and aded 1024x786 resolution;restarted my X-server and NOTHING happens; the resolution remains the same. This is unexpected behaviour and quite a few other Linux Softwares are also fraught with this behaviour

2) WHen qtparted refuses to install it throws up all sort fo "unbeknown" error which are all but helpful in solving the problems.

Perhaps the gurus have to say something on this behavior of Linux and how much has this contributed towards Linux not becoming the Choice-OS for desktops.
I think that you forgot that you can cycle through resolutions using CTRL and + on the numpad. Either that or you didn't edit the file correctly.
 
Old 05-18-2003, 07:03 PM   #34
Vlad_M
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and one more thing... I am sick and tired of "why will Linux never be on all the desktops".

Pardon my french, but who gives a flying f_uck whether it will or won't? It is doing fine without being on all the desktops, it is on all the desktops that count - i.e. coders, academics, people that actually do something constructive other than editing spreadsheets all day (and even that is better done in Linux IMO - Oo is getting mightier every release).

So quit the whining, if you want to use Linux as is it is then learn it, you'll be glad that you did (cos you'll get some computer understanding along the way), if you're not happy with it that is fine, go back to Windows XP and enjoy the user friendliness.

I also had (and still have) problems with doing some things in Linux, but everytime, and i mean EVERYTIME that i found out how to actually do something it made sense, much more than in Windows, and revealed beautiful, logical simpicity.

BTW, if you used Linux from the moment you came into contact with computers, do you think that you would still find it hard/not user friendly? No, it's just that Windows has created so many bad habbits, and bad habbits die hard, people want to perpetuate them.
 
Old 05-18-2003, 10:25 PM   #35
chem1
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vlad_M

....constructive other than editing spreadsheets all day
Well, I guess the editing spreadsheets is DEFINITELY a constructive thing

Quote:
(and even that is better done in Linux IMO - Oo is getting mightier every release).
If by mightier you mean more heavy to load and less fast to run, the I agree totally with you

Quote:
I also had (and still have) problems with doing some things in Linux, but everytime, and i mean EVERYTIME that i found out how to actually do something it made sense, much more than in Windows, and revealed beautiful, logical simpicity.
Tyr to understand that not all people in this world have the time to go through all the errors that Linux throws when something goes wrong, for example. Not everyone is a geek. People want simple solutions. So if Linux has to win then ithas to get out of the clout of 'geekiness' and compete with Windows. That is a truth no matter how many 'geeks' or academics etc. use Linux

All i am saying is that instead of looking at Winblows as a foe look at it as a Software that's bloated and that we have to come up with something simple (which Linux is not, unfortubately) and elegant (in which Linux exceeds Winblows by all accounts)

Hope that helps...
 
Old 05-19-2003, 12:51 AM   #36
chem1
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And this is a classic example of Linux behaving erratically. And yet another reason why we need standardization for the Linux Platform.No simple user can figure out what to do in this situation
Have a look...
http://www.linuxquestions.org/questi...threadid=60540

Hope that helps....
 
Old 05-19-2003, 01:57 AM   #37
Tinkster
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Quote:
Originally posted by chem1
[Tyr to understand that not all people in this world have the time to go through all the errors that Linux throws when something goes wrong, for example. Not everyone is a geek. People want simple solutions.
Admitted ... staring @ blue-screens takes
less time, and pressing the reset-button about
twice a day is quite a moderate challenge... or
a re-install every few month because the
registry crapped out on you.


Personally, I rather have an uptime of
several month, the ability to maintain my
comp even through a modem connection
without growing grey hair, and all of that
at no cost at all ;)

Cheers,
Tink
 
Old 05-20-2003, 10:37 PM   #38
chem1
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Staring at blue screens is definitely not an issue with Windows2000 (not that I have not used windows on a regular basis since long ). Its a pretty stable product.

Anyways, I guess that this thread has gone long enough for anyone to read the pros and cons of Linux over Winblows. My vote has always been for Linux, although we still have huge work to do on making some basic stuff here and there (My Lexmark Printer does not install. The installer asks for a certain library which is already installed on my system ). For sure we will do it

Hope that helps....

Last edited by chem1; 05-20-2003 at 10:38 PM.
 
Old 05-21-2003, 11:15 AM   #39
slightcrazed
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Quote:
Originally posted by chem1
Staring at blue screens is definitely not an issue with Windows2000 (not that I have not used windows on a regular basis since long ). Its a pretty stable product.

Win2K, as a desktop or even in Server or Advanced Server form is fairly stable, but still not to the degree that Linux is.

In the end, Linux does have some issues to overcome before it is accepted as a desktop alternative in the mainstream. However, its complexity is not necesarily a hinderance to its overall acceptance. I can configure a Linux workstation under any distro to be basically maintinance free. End users are more concerned about applications and their desktop environment then the OS running in the background, and as long as the applications have some sence of order to them, the users shouldn't complain.

just my 2 cents.

As for:
Quote:
2) One of the biggest problems in Linux is the (perceived) unavailabilty of Installer Programs (like InstallShield). I know that much work has been done in this regard and most major distributions have come up with really neat stuff, yet whenever I download something from , for example, sourceforge.net, I have to do the usual "configure, make, make install" stuff. Not that its hard to do it, but things go bad when the make file throws all sort of errors. It would be better if some installer program can give users some meaningful messages
This is less of a problem with Linux, and more a result of the applications being loaded. Most of them (infact, I think 95% of what I have on my RH 8 system) are ALPHA stage or BETA stage. Of course they are not going to have installers, and I like it that way. If you have ever developed even simple applications for Windoze and made them available to the public, then you most likely have been inundated with email from less inclined users who think that "It doesn't work right" qualifies as a bug report. Most ALPHA and BETA stage projects on Linux do require some work to get installed, but this helps to weed out a lot of potential users, and I am sure that it also ensures that the feedback the developers receive is much more streamlined and benneficial. Ask most of the developers, and they will tell you that once a program has gone final, they plan on incorporating some sort of install script, be it RPM, or a more robust auto-installer. It is just not possible or wise to do so for every single BETA release of an app. I personally prefer the good ole ./configure, make, make install simply because it allows for better control over the options passed during compile, and for me that is very important. I hate being walked through a GUI wizard like installshield and only given options on where to put the folder in program files, and weather to show the icon on the desktop.

OK, I'll step down from my soapbox now...

slight
 
Old 05-21-2003, 02:06 PM   #40
Vlad_M
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Quote:
Originally posted by chem1
And this is a classic example of Linux behaving erratically. And yet another reason why we need standardization for the Linux Platform.No simple user can figure out what to do in this situation
Have a look...
http://www.linuxquestions.org/questi...threadid=60540

Hope that helps....
I can't believe that you've chosen that thread as an example of a serious, stupefying problem. The dude forgot to turn the mixer volume up, for god's sake, and that is Linux's fault???? Ridiculous.

You also missed my point in the above post. As I said, I really don't care (and i know that many other people feel the same) about whether you, Joe Bloggs, Tom, Jane or Harry find linux user friendly, better than windows or anything else.

I also don't care that you think that I am a geek (and I think that i would surprise you) for taking the time to learn how to use Linux, because I actually invested far more time into learning the oxymorons of windows (figuratively speaking) and that time has been spent in vain, cos I learnt very little other than how bad coding perpetuates itself.

I most definitely don't care whether Linux will ever 'rule the desktop' - I don't see how that will improve it in any way, all I can see from that is greedy businesses exploiting loop-holes and eventually finding the way to kill the open-source community and start selling the hard work of many volunteers.

Speaking of the communty, if you are so pro-Linux, and have so mnay problems with it, why don't you contribute and submit a patch here and there, look into how you can help to fix the issues that bother you the most? It is very easy to download 3cds worth of software created mostly by people who sacrificed their time for NOTHING, and then slate it left right and center for not doing this or that or not being Windows.

P.S. FYI - MS Office takes just as much to load as Oo. you just don't notice it because MS decided to preload some of the libs at boot time, and never unload them from the memory once you close one of the office programs.

And, finally (I promise), I really don't mean this to seem like a personal attack on you (although I know that I don't have what you would call a silky tongue ). It's just that I feel really strongly about this, and also I generally don't like to beat around the bush, I rather say how I feel.

Anyway, that is just my opinion.

Cheers mate!!

V.
 
Old 05-21-2003, 03:26 PM   #41
Valken
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I'd like to add another vote to gentoo and portage... despite being a long time *nix variant user in college I've only recently been using it seriously at home thanks to a new broadband connection.

portage helps a lot with package dependencies etc while still building everything optimised for your system.

As for how Linux works converging to form a unified OS... I don't like the idea. One of the things I like most about Linux is being able to build a fast, custom system.

Most of the time I don't even use X... is that "normal"?
 
Old 05-21-2003, 09:42 PM   #42
chem1
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Quote:
Speaking of the communty, if you are so pro-Linux, and have so mnay problems with it, why don't you contribute and submit a patch here and there, look into how you can help to fix the issues that bother you the most? It is very easy to download 3cds worth of software created mostly by people who sacrificed their time for NOTHING, and then slate it left right and center for not doing this or that or not being Windows.
Well, I guess that is not necessary for me to elaborate on what I am doing for Linux. I know what I am doing and I do not want any reward for that. And yes I am pro-Linux thats why I have no problem criticizing it since I want it to grow better by the day. And unlesswe , as a community, know what the problems are, it would be rather difficult to achieve that.

Hope that helps...

Last edited by chem1; 05-21-2003 at 09:43 PM.
 
Old 05-22-2003, 02:47 AM   #43
Vlad_M
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Quote:
Originally posted by chem1
Well, I guess that is not necessary for me to elaborate on what I am doing for Linux. I know what I am doing and I do not want any reward for that.
In that case, your comments carry a lot more weight as far as I am concerned. I apologise for the rash assumptions that I made.
 
Old 10-02-2004, 09:34 AM   #44
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I agree that RPMs are simplicity itself, but only in theory. Only when you can find one that has been made for your distribution, or you make it yourself (above *my* expertise level at this time).

Saying RPMs are *the* simple answer to installations is sort of like saying windoze is intuitive, for some people, at some times, both statements are true. If RPMs *were* really simple, the phrase "RPM hell" would not pop up as often as it does, and there would not be as many questions as there are as to why RPM installs failed in these forum pages.

To paraphrase MS, "where do we want to go"? I am sure that I am not all that different from lots of readers of these forums, I like Linux, I don't like the straighjacket MS puts you in, and haven't tried MAC. I don't mind (AAMOF somewhat masochistically enjoy <G>) tweaking the system to make it work for me, but not when I've got to get something up and running that I need *now*.

If we (the linux community at large) want to have an OS that outperforms MS products, we've pretty much got it now, with some exceptions (many of which are not the fault of the OS, but of the makers of hardware and their refusal to release information). If we want to see a much more significant penetration of the home/SOHO desktops around the world, some things need to be made easier for the "point and click" mentality that MS has given so many people.

Adding a interface that makes installations of new programs "thoughtless" would be an excellent start. Note I am NOT saying making it THE interface, just another option.

Someone in another thread suggested having an option during install (and that can be changed later, as you gain experience) that asks your Linux expertise level, and if you say you're a newbie/novice/dummy, it has (as default) a more "thoughtless" interface. I think this is an excellent idea!

Quote:
Originally posted by lokee
You were talking about simple installs, well I know nothing simpler than installing from RPMs!

Just a simple : rpm -ivh pkg and voila...
Wanna disinstall? rpm -e pkg

Can you do that with InstallShield? NO!
You have to click lots of buttons for nothing!

As for DE, I like the way it is: you have the choice(unlike in Windows)...
 
  


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