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Old 04-14-2014, 05:47 AM   #151
Shadow_7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suicidaleggroll View Post
Time is money, and the cost of dropping everything they know and moving to an entirely new platform, with an entirely new set of applications, entirely new way of operating, and an entirely new way of debugging and fixing problems, is often too great to justify the switch for MANY people and MANY organizations. This does not make them stupid, it does not make them ignorant, it makes them realistic.
Money is money too, and taking time to avoid spending money in the long term has it's perks. Licensing costs will likely rise for those operating systems and utilities that require them. So short term, it's better to not change, but long term you're potentially pushing yourself out of the market.

-----

As far as syncing an iPhone with linux, is that a failing of linux, or a failing of that company that makes iPhones? Although libimobiledevice, amarok and other things seem to suggest that an iPhone can be sync'd with linux. Not that I'll ever have an iPhone to verify that.
 
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Old 04-14-2014, 05:54 AM   #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drakeo View Post
Because they do not want to think Linux. To overcome this. you must think linux not windows.
No. Just because the "average Joe" PC user does not "think Windows" to begin with. The average user thinks "e-mail, social networks, multimedia and sometimes games".
Quote:
OH well I guess this should be a Iphone forum then.
You totally missed the point (besides that iOS is UNIX based and therefore has a place in this forums). If someone has an iPhone (or any other device) and can't use its functions in conjunction with Linux, but with Windows and OS X it is not hard to guess why that person rather does not use Linux.
Quote:
As with any thing you do it must take commitment. I am sure if you keep thinking GNU them problems will become solved the GNU way.

If you want the frustration of trying to make an apple taste like an orange. Then put some money in a developers hand and have it done.
Or do it your self and name it. Or go into the OSX forums and post how to sync my phone with Linux and see how the folks there handle that.
They are kind and think Mac. Same for windows ask them how to do it.
May be they have a nice closed source application that you can buy that will handle it.
Then waaaallaaa all fixed. Do it the windows or the OSX way. Not the GNU way. But give it time.
People don't think Windows, OS X or GNU. They think "these are the tasks I want to do, can I do them with your computer?". No average user cares about the OS, as long as it does what they want to do. If it doesn't those people don't switch the OS (they usually never install an OS), they just buy a new machine that is capable of doing what they want. And the thing works in both directions, there is nothing the average user can do with Linux that they can't with Windows or OS X. Which means the OS simply becomes irrelevant for those people, they get what they can buy and what is trendy. So what we really need to further the adoption of Linux would be a mass of machines with Linux pre-installed (worked just fine in the mobile market) together with good marketing.
Linux must get a "coolness" factor, not a "geek" factor or a "look, all our tools are free" factor.
Quote:
I guess I am just foolish have no Idea what them other operating system do.
This is a Linux question forums and my tools are the GNU Linux.
Then you are limiting and disqualifying yourself from answering this question. If you have no clue about other OSes, how can you tell others why they should switch?
 
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Old 04-14-2014, 05:59 AM   #153
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so tobi your thinking for other people.
Quote:
People don't think Windows, OS X or GNU. They think "these are the tasks I want to do, can I do them with your computer?"
Now that we are off the topic do to the moderator.
don't think for me I was a window user at one time and I over came it.

People are people and they want to use a system they need to educate them self. that is why they come here.
And that is why we take time to explain to them the GNU way. this is a linux forum.
 
Old 04-14-2014, 06:44 AM   #154
Didier Spaier
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drakeo View Post
People are people and they want to use a system they need to educate them self. that is why they come here.
And that is why we take time to explain to them the GNU way. this is a linux forum.
Good luck to find people who actually feel the "need to educate themselves" and visit this forum in that aim. Just tell us how many people you'll have educated in one year.

I agree with TobiSGD on that topic.
 
Old 04-14-2014, 07:15 AM   #155
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oh well. I guess the reason why people do not want to change is they do not want to get out of their comfort zone. That means create a comfortable way to educate them. And I guess since there is no central head to the GNU world or Linux distro's this will never happen. If it does it may push people out of there comfort zone.
I am comfortable with Slackware. I am sure I have helped teach many the way to over come the hurdles of using the GNU coming from other operating systems.

I think there should be and you should lead it how to create a comfortable way to deal with people do not want to change and deal with their reasoning.
Quote:
Reasons why people don't want to switch to Linux (and overcoming them).
If people are use to other operating systems and find the change to hard to expensive. Why waist your time with LINUX. I over came this by Thinking Linux.

Last edited by Drakeo; 04-14-2014 at 07:22 AM.
 
Old 04-14-2014, 07:42 AM   #156
rtmistler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suicidaleggroll View Post
I'll just chalk it up as another one of the MANY Linux Netflix "solutions" that over-promises and under-delivers, and spend the rest of my evening trying to fix these damn fonts.
This is definitely another one of the reasons why Windows users don't want to switch.

It is true that how ever many years ago, computers were MS-DOS or the first versions of Windows and if you screwed them up, you were screwed, so only those who would spend long nights figuring out how to fix them would emerge somewhat satisfied.

While Linux has come a long way; there are clearly a ton of similar experiences like suidicaleggroll's; where one tries to install one lousy thing and they can get in a screwed state.

I would also think that it is daunting to a non-experienced Linux person to have to deal with all of the various distribution choices as well as the nuances of make and install and the possibility that something will need to be fixed after those actions. I know what people will say, "No one says they have to go that far!", but there's nothing recommending they avoid that path, in fact I feel a lot more information will steer them exactly towards the "build it" solution versus using a package installer.

Perhaps if Linux were to present two universally common conventions; a user-based environment and an expert-based environment. Clearly many enjoy the full capabilities to customize and write new code, but for those who don't wish to experiment and just want things working; those user-based persons would probably prefer a singularly defined interface. As an example, there are many, many window managers; and users will want to use a window manager, not a command prompt. They will not wish to learn opkg, apt-get, dpkg, and so forth; they'll want to run a UI based add/remove software. I think a lot of distributions which offer full UI based installs do offer a good suite for a user to play with. Perhaps the real tact there is to provide a short list of easy to install, easy to use distributions which are more recommended for new users.
 
Old 04-14-2014, 08:05 AM   #157
schneidz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 273 View Post
Right, so anyone wanting to synch an iPhone they own is wrong and should either sell it or live without synching because you say so?
So nobody ought to use Google Earth because you decreed it irrelevant?
Evolution and [some imaginary system] is suddenly a replacement for Outlook and Exchange because you said it is?
I think you forgot the title of this thread in your haste to defend Linux. I would say that this is a good example of the harm I mentioned before in telling people what they should use and expecting that to "convert them to Linux".
no, we are running in circles here but i was really echoing suicidaleggrolls quote about capability vs. compatibility. i think its wrong to say that linux distros are incapable of syncing a fone (they are just not compatible with ifone without jumping thru a few hoops). certain car brands have the older ipod/ifone dock so many people would use that as a one of the reasons to go with one brand or another (but i just plug in my galaxy via analog cable).
from what i hear is google earth worx in gnu/linux never tried it but there are trouble with it from what i hear.
evolution/thunderbird: capability vs. compatibility.
http://www.linuxquestions.org/questi...ml#post5151885
but if you have 5 years of emails saved in microsoft psd format, it will be a pain in the ass to convert those to mbox format (so i probably wouldnt switch).

Last edited by schneidz; 04-14-2014 at 09:35 AM.
 
Old 04-14-2014, 08:06 AM   #158
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[QUOTE=enorbet;5152143]

After making sure they know using a computer is going to be work ,,, I've switched to setting up *untus or Mint for people if they call or come over with an occasional question then I'm glad to try and help look we're on Linux Questions .org
http://linuxcounter.net/main.html
http://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/users-lightbulb.html
http://www.psychologytoday.com/artic...-have-problems . . .
 
Old 04-14-2014, 08:10 AM   #159
TobiSGD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drakeo View Post
Now that we are off the topic do to the moderator
No, this is not offtopic. The topic is "Reasons why people don't want to switch to Linux (and overcoming them)." The very first task to overcome the reasons why people don't switch is to determine those reasons. To determine those reasons you have to define what the average user is actually doing with his machine. For most people using a computer is not for "Thinking Windows" or "Thinking GNU/Linux", it is "Facebook", "WhatsApp", "Google", "Playing that video and watching those photos" and sometimes "Playing that game". Nobody sits in front of the computer to use Windows or OS X just because. People want get things done and for the majority of the things they want to get done the OS is simply irrelevant, it doesn't matter if you use Firefox on Linux, Windows or OS X to visit Facebook or a G+ account. The computer is an appliance for those people. What does matter is that there are tasks that they can't do with certain OSes. There is no Linux version of WhatsApp and it doesn't matter at all to those people if you tell them "Learn to think Linux" if all they want to do is to chat with their contacts in WhatsApp.
Quote:
As far as syncing an iPhone with linux, is that a failing of linux, or a failing of that company that makes iPhones?
It doesn't matter to them if it is Apple's fault or if it is the fault of Linux if a certain device they own simply isn't fully supported in Linux and they want to use those functions. What matters to them is "Hey, it works on Windows and OS X, but not Linux. Linux sucks!"

Last edited by TobiSGD; 04-14-2014 at 08:12 AM.
 
Old 04-14-2014, 08:43 AM   #160
jamison20000e
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Maybe I should switch my #1 answer to money because multi\b\m\illion dollar companies do better as shepherds. Or, is this still to close to my first answer?
 
Old 04-14-2014, 10:37 AM   #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow_7 View Post
Money is money too, and taking time to avoid spending money in the long term has it's perks. Licensing costs will likely rise for those operating systems and utilities that require them. So short term, it's better to not change, but long term you're potentially pushing yourself out of the market.
That's true, but when you really think about it those licensing costs are often piddly compared to labor costs required to switch.

Here's just one real world example:

A few years ago my company developed a new product for the scientific/research community. One of the boards in that device was contracted out to an RF specialist. That RF specialist used the tools he knew for the design, which happened to be Altium. When the project was completed, somewhere around $1-200k later, all of the design files, documents, source code, etc. were delivered by the contractor, so that we could modify them as needed/desired, send the designs for manufacture, etc. We are now sitting on a $1-200k package of design files in Altium's format. Altium has no Linux version, it does not run in Wine, and no other software packages are compatible with its format. There are a few options here:

1) Convert the design to a cross-platform (eg: Kicad) format. This would take probably a couple of months of labor to accomplish, plus multiple revisions to the board, population, testing time, etc. to ensure it still works correctly. I'd estimate around $50,000 for either me or the original contractor to do it. This is assuming Kicad is even capable of reproducing this design, since Kicad, and all other cross-platform PCB design packages I'm aware of, are limited, especially compared to Altium.

2) Force the contractor to use a cross-platform format from the beginning. Assuming he would have even agreed to that requirement (he probably wouldn't have), it would have easily raised the cost by the same $50k due to him having to learn a new software package during the design. Alternatively, we could have gone with a different contractor who used a cross-platform software package from the beginning. This would have taken a couple of weeks to hunt down (more thousands of dollars), and the contractor might not have been as good, resulting in even more thousands of dollars wasted on iterating the design, etc.

3) Switch to Linux and throw away the $1-200k in design files, since we can't use them anymore.

4) Pay $100 for a Windows license, a couple grand for an Altium license, and use Windows.



Any boards that I design, I use Kicad/Eagle, or some other cross-platform software package. But that does not change the fact that we STILL NEED Windows to be able to read/use the design files that were already created and delivered.


One of the other boards in the device can only be programmed from Windows. The manufacturer does not provide a Linux version of their interface software, and there is no open source equivalent. Sure I could spend weeks/months trying to port the software, but why? Again we're looking at tens of thousands of dollars to try to convert the software to Linux or write a new Linux version, when Windows costs $100 and the Windows version of the software is free.


Lab equipment often has computer interfaces for control and logging. Tektronix, Agilent, HP, etc. These interfaces are usually proprietary, and the manufacturer offers free Windows software for control/logging. There are Linux open source software packages for interfacing with a couple of manufacturers and models, but not many. Again, we could spend tens of thousands developing our own for Linux, or we could spend $100 on Windows and download the manufacturer's software for free.


The list goes on and on.


Just these three examples add up to well over $100k required to convert to Linux, versus just a couple of grand to use Windows. You can't tell me it makes sense to invest the ridiculous amount of labor hours required to convert to Linux for these examples, and this is just the tip of the iceberg. In 12 months it's entirely likely some new development for the company will have a Windows-only requirement as well. Should we be expected to spend another $50k every year to keep converting everything to Linux, when a single $1000 Windows machine could handle it all without a problem?


I'm not knocking Linux here, it's just the reality of the situation. There are just as many or more examples of the reverse as well - software packages that only work on Linux and are not compatible with Windows. I just didn't bring them up because transitioning in that direction is not relevant to this discussion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow_7 View Post
As far as syncing an iPhone with linux, is that a failing of linux, or a failing of that company that makes iPhones? Although libimobiledevice, amarok and other things seem to suggest that an iPhone can be sync'd with linux. Not that I'll ever have an iPhone to verify that.
It's because of lack of support from the manufacturer. As I said before, the incompatibility between Linux and the iPhone (and hundreds/thousands of other devices) is not the fault of Linux, it's the fault of the manufacturers, but the end result is the same. You can spend days/weeks/months trying to get Linux to work with them, which may or may not be successful in the end, or you can spend $100 on Windows and have everything working out of the box. The choice is very clear, if the user needs to interface with one or more of these incompatible devices or use one or more of these incompatible software packages.


In my personal life, I tend to avoid purchasing devices that have a Windows-only requirement, as long as there is something equivalent from another manufacturer that can be used in Linux, but:
1) That's not always an option, sometimes there is no equivalent device that can be used in Linux.
2) I often don't have control over things like that when making business purchases. If I go to the boss and say "product X will do the job perfectly, but I would rather spend $100 more on product Y which isn't quite as good as X, because Y will let me use Linux", chances are I'll get overruled.

Last edited by suicidaleggroll; 04-14-2014 at 10:50 AM.
 
Old 04-14-2014, 10:42 AM   #162
schneidz
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another recent example:
http://www.linuxquestions.org/questi...86#post5152286
 
Old 04-14-2014, 10:59 AM   #163
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I think ignorance and/or fear is a powerful reason why most people don't switch. They think Linux is difficult to use.
I've also read a lot from Windows users the Linux desktop is not mature enough. Obviously this is the ignorance part I mentioned before.

As for the fear, I've try to convince to people that only use the PC for internet browsing, watching media, listening to music, and, on occasions, having the need to use Microsoft Word. These people could perfectly do these tasks with any Linux distro, but when you mention Linux, you can tell the look on their faces. They fear anything that's new, and sounds different. They think they are not going to be able to use it. They don't think about the benefits of having a stable system, in which you don't have to worry about viruses, formatting to restore the system, etc.

I think maybe a good strategy for the fear factor is to install a Linux distro, claiming it's a new Windows version :P
 
Old 04-14-2014, 12:31 PM   #164
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O$s run in OSs (thanks more so to *nix (debatably)) and with benefits e.g: once a year because I'm no guru I make winblows (backed up on Blu-ray VHD) and .gov my and Linux's bit*h then I put it back in the stack. http://www.junauza.com/2008/01/top-5...-all-time.html

Last edited by jamison20000e; 04-14-2014 at 12:52 PM.
 
Old 04-14-2014, 12:37 PM   #165
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Quote:
No, this is not offtopic. The topic is "Reasons why people don't want to switch to Linux (and overcoming them)." The very first task to overcome the reasons why people don't switch is to determine those reasons. To determine those reasons you have to define what the average user is actually doing with his machine. For most people using a computer is not for "Thinking Windows" or "Thinking GNU/Linux", it is "Facebook", "WhatsApp", "Google", "Playing that video and watching those photos" and sometimes "Playing that game". Nobody sits in front of the computer to use Windows or OS X just because. People want get things done and for the majority of the things they want to get done the OS is simply irrelevant, it doesn't matter if you use Firefox on Linux, Windows or OS X to visit Facebook or a G+ account.
I understand what your saying I do agree to a point. You have a wonderful idea.

It would be wrong of me if I forgot what it was like to be part of the GNU Linux community. I can see and understand the growth of a community. Or if I have become lost with paid customers crying. The fact there is a reason why people go to GNU Linux. It is about hardware and cost. And the ability to control their path in the digital world. Wake up overcome this "thinking and join the community". Save my customer relation for your windows users. Think GNU linux and you will be set free into a wonderful community of people like you TobiSGD.
That's how I overcome people that think I got the money to do anything and I want. well make it happen.

Who are you to categorize people and judge them if that is not prejudice then read above in the quote.

First you need to define why a person would need Linux that's up to them. Problem with GNU Linux it is to simple and it has 43,000,000 or more people that are able to help you. Well that's like herding cats.
Quote:
The computer is an appliance for those people. What does matter is that there are tasks that they can't do with certain OSes. There is no Linux version of WhatsApp and it doesn't matter at all to those people if you tell them "Learn to think Linux" if all they want to do is to chat with their contacts in WhatsApp.
I agree with that but.
I am sure if some one drops down there money for a Mac Book. or a Windows box. Then they have made financial commitment to think Mac or Windows. If they have dropped there money on a Enterprise then they have made that commitment to that distribution of GNU Linux.

Those are the reasons why people use the system they have financially committed to that path and do not want the change. I am sure there are exceptions to every rule.

Once you figure out why a person needs GNU Linux then you can start to overcome the wall and break it down.

Never think you know what some one wants at that moment you can be let down big time.
So the question is how do you think GNU Linux? How does that help none GNU Linux users overcome? I overcome the reasons by Example and that is what stable systems do. Apple has made a fortune doing that. And there are many windows apps that run on Mac. There is reasons why that has happen because the software is not free.

I ask instead of judging have people become to used to thinking they can buy freedom.

Thinking GNU Linux is Thinking Community to me.
 
  


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