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Old 03-12-2020, 08:18 PM   #16
redneonglow
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As time goes on I find it more and more hard to believe that the political correctness movement has the intentions of creating a peaceful society. I am really starting to believe that their motives are based on revenge and the desire to divide and isolate people, not to unite people and help the disadvantaged as they claim.
 
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Old 03-13-2020, 09:49 AM   #17
RickDeckard
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People are to be treated as human beings with the right to be heard until the moral puritans of the age say they aren't, apparently. This is nothing new.
 
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Old 03-13-2020, 04:15 PM   #18
rnturn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JWJones View Post
No, but I'm pretty sure those folks at OSI have a pretty good idea of ESR's character, so it shouldn't come as any surprise as to his reaction to thin-skinned crybabies.

...

I hear millennials whimpering about this stuff a lot lately, so sorry if this seems abrasive and rude, haha. It just makes me want to bellow "STFU and GTFO!"
I can only imagine their reactions if Usenet newsgroups were still the dominant means communicating on the 'Net. You donned your asbestos longjohns but still prepared to be flamed ruthlessly by some.
 
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Old 03-13-2020, 04:43 PM   #19
andigena
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rnturn View Post
I can only imagine their reactions if Usenet newsgroups were still the dominant means communicating on the 'Net. You donned your asbestos longjohns but still prepared to be flamed ruthlessly by some.
It's shocking to me that people look back fondly on an era that can be described this way.
 
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Old 03-13-2020, 06:37 PM   #20
ondoho
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So I started reading the mailing list.

The story starts with ESR actually joining the mailing list after 20 years!
A discussion about a topic develops.
From the start I notice that the people on the list have an established way of discussing things. It all sounds a little bureaucratic and anemic, but peaceful and paced, carefully phrased. ESR is not so careful. I find particularly jarring how, almost right from the start, he assumes a would-be authoritative tone in a community that has developed ways of discussing things for 20 years, without him, and - while not being insulting per se - a propensity for strong language.
I’d say it starts getting a little hairy around here (last paragraph):
Quote:
With whatever moral authority I still have here, I say to all
advocates of soi-disant “ethical” licensing not just “No” but “To hell
with you and the horse you rode in on.”
Then this:
Quote:
Quote:
somebody else wrote:

We need a set of options, licensing
or otherwise, that uphold the OSD and FSD and allow them to make some
different on the other issues in the world. I’m trying to explore the
licensing topic here.
No, we don’t.

I am not fooled. You are mounting an ideological attack on our core
principles of liberty and nondiscrimination. You will not succeed
while I retain any ability to oppose this.
(I'm not commenting on what is being discussed, only on the How)

Always feel free to click through to others' reactions - so far I have found nothing but politeness and ESR starts to look more and more like the proverbial elephant in a china shop.

Mark how ESR not only claims power over others but also, after having stayed out of it for 20 years, talks about “our core principles” that he needs to defend...
No wonder people are starting to get miffed now!
But even so, the reactions I’m reading are very restrained.

There's a general request for people to restrain their language - not their opinions! - and keep their discussions civil.

Unfortunately, ESR does not stop there. It gets worse - this message was not accepted to the list, but another member quoted it:
Quote:
toxic loonytoon ... political ratfucking ... vulgar Marxism
I just picked out the tasty bits, but in its entirety this is an all-too-familiar rage-rant about political correctness in the FOSS community gone wrong.

And that’s it, I cannot find anymore posts by ESR, apparently that’s when some people decided to kick him out.
Kicked him out of one of many OSI mailing lists, not out of the OSI itself, as the thread title might suggest.

Last edited by ondoho; 03-14-2020 at 05:05 AM.
 
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Old 03-14-2020, 11:58 AM   #21
andigena
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ondoho View Post
So I started reading the mailing list.

The story starts with ESR actually joining the mailing list after 20 years!
A discussion about a topic develops.
From the start I notice that the people on the list have an established way of discussing things. It all sounds a little bureaucratic and anemic, but peaceful and paced, carefully phrased. ESR is not so careful. I find particularly jarring how, almost right from the start, he assumes a would-be authoritative tone in a community that has developed ways of discussing things for 20 years, without him, and - while not being insulting per se - a propensity for strong language.
Iíd say it starts getting a little hairy around here (last paragraph):

Then this:

(I'm not commenting on what is being discussed, only on the How)

Always feel free to click through to others' reactions - so far I have found nothing but politeness and ESR starts to look more and more like the proverbial elephant in a china shop.

Mark how ESR not only claims power over others but also, after having stayed out of it for 20 years, talks about ďour core principlesĒ that he needs to defend...
No wonder people are starting to get miffed now!
But even so, the reactions Iím reading are very restrained.

There's a general request for people to restrain their language - not their opinions! - and keep their discussions civil.

Unfortunately, ESR does not stop there. It gets worse - this message was not accepted to the list, but another member quoted it:

I just picked out the tasty bits, but in its entirety this is an all-too-familiar rage-rant about political correctness in the FOSS community gone wrong.

And thatís it, I cannot find anymore posts by ESR, apparently thatís when some people decided to kick him out.
Kicked him out of one of many OSI mailing lists, not out of the OSI itself, as the thread title might suggest.
Thanks for the informative analysis! This paints a much better picture of the surrounding context, and it fairly well justifies ESR's ban.
 
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Old 03-14-2020, 04:35 PM   #22
fido_dogstoyevsky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andigena View Post
It's shocking to me that people look back fondly on an era that can be described this way.
One thing that era taught me was efficient use of a killfile (ignore list on LQ).

Trolls were only a real problem in unmoderated groups; moderation keeps LQ civil.
 
Old 03-14-2020, 04:38 PM   #23
ChuangTzu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andigena View Post
It's shocking to me that people look back fondly on an era that can be described this way.
Develop thicker skin, you can't go through life surrounded in bubble wrap. Skin those knees, fall down off that bike, get into a few scuffles then grow up, learn and succeed. If one is too protected they will never develop or grow. There is a reason the "War Generation" is often regarded as the greatest generation, it's because of what they went through and how they survived!
 
Old 03-14-2020, 05:11 PM   #24
andigena
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuangTzu View Post
Develop thicker skin, you can't go through life surrounded in bubble wrap. Skin those knees, fall down off that bike, get into a few scuffles then grow up, learn and succeed. If one is too protected they will never develop or grow. There is a reason the "War Generation" is often regarded as the greatest generation, it's because of what they went through and how they survived!
Honestly, surrounding myself with bubble wrap might actually be a good idea given how clumsy I am...
 
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Old 03-14-2020, 05:28 PM   #25
ChuangTzu
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Originally Posted by andigena View Post
Honestly, surrounding myself with bubble wrap might actually be a good idea given how clumsy I am...
LOL.
 
Old 03-14-2020, 08:26 PM   #26
astrogeek
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fido_dogstoyevsky View Post
... moderation keeps LQ civil.
In reality I think it is genuine mutual respect and goodwill among the majority of members alone, which is responsible for the generally amiable quality of interaction maintained at LQ! Without that, no amount of moderation could reproduce the same conditions.

One lesson we humans seem always slow to learn, and one demonstrated by the events under discussion in this thread, is that in the absence of genuine mutual respect among participants, no set of rules, no code of conduct or any other attempt at imposing some desired uniform behavior among participants can succeed.

Moderation is little more than a reminder for those of genuine goodwill, even when emotions flare. Rules are there to set some limits on outlying behaviors, but thankfully, are not the primary code of conduct for most members, that being their own respect for others.
 
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