LinuxQuestions.org
Latest LQ Deal: Latest LQ Deals
Go Back   LinuxQuestions.org > Forums > Linux Forums > Linux - General
User Name
Password
Linux - General This Linux forum is for general Linux questions and discussion.
If it is Linux Related and doesn't seem to fit in any other forum then this is the place.

Notices


Reply
  Search this Thread
Old 03-11-2020, 05:09 PM   #1
ChuangTzu
Senior Member
 
Registered: May 2015
Location: Where ever needed
Distribution: Slackware/Salix while testing others
Posts: 1,718

Rep: Reputation: 1857Reputation: 1857Reputation: 1857Reputation: 1857Reputation: 1857Reputation: 1857Reputation: 1857Reputation: 1857Reputation: 1857Reputation: 1857Reputation: 1857
Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond


Well, I attempted to post this to Linux News the other day and either it has not been reviewed or was not found to be news worthy, so here goes:

Quote:
Last week, Eric S Raymond (often known as ESR, author of The Cathedral and the Bazaar, and co-founder of the Open Source Intiative) was banned from the Open Source Intiative (the “OSI”).

Specifically, Raymond was banned from the mailing lists used to organize and communicate with the OSI.

For an organization to ban their founder from communicating with the group (such as via a mailing list) is a noteworthy move.
Ref: includes an interview with ESR
https://lunduke.com/posts/2020-03-9-b/

Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mq7m2oQdJEA

The right to be rude
http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=8609
 
Old 03-11-2020, 06:04 PM   #2
astrogeek
Moderator
 
Registered: Oct 2008
Distribution: Slackware [64]-X.{0|1|2|37|-current} ::12<=X<=15, FreeBSD_12{.0|.1}
Posts: 6,258
Blog Entries: 24

Rep: Reputation: 4193Reputation: 4193Reputation: 4193Reputation: 4193Reputation: 4193Reputation: 4193Reputation: 4193Reputation: 4193Reputation: 4193Reputation: 4193Reputation: 4193
From the ibiblio link, ESR's comments:

Quote:
The effect – the intended effect – is to diminish the prestige and autonomy of people who do the work – write the code – in favor of self-appointed tone-policers. In the process, the freedom to speak necessary truths even when the manner in which they are expressed is unpleasant is being gradually strangled.
Free software as a guiding principle has been effectively killed and its founder silenced ... don't kid yourself, it is over.

Now its lesser offspring, Open Source, is being strangled as well.

Truth will assert itself in the end, but usually with accumulated explosive pressure.

Last edited by astrogeek; 03-11-2020 at 06:08 PM.
 
1 members found this post helpful.
Old 03-11-2020, 07:21 PM   #3
andigena
Member
 
Registered: Sep 2019
Location: USA
Distribution: nixos, but i prefer plan 9
Posts: 141

Rep: Reputation: 66
Honestly, I think it's both unnecessary and perhaps even dangerous to speculate about this prior to even knowing exactly what's happening behind the scenes. There are a ton of possible motivations, and don't forget that ESR has been, quite frankly, an abrasive blowhard for years now. I wouldn't be surprised at all if he just finally crossed the line.
 
1 members found this post helpful.
Old 03-11-2020, 07:33 PM   #4
berndbausch
LQ Addict
 
Registered: Nov 2013
Location: Tokyo
Distribution: Mostly Ubuntu and Centos
Posts: 6,316

Rep: Reputation: 2002Reputation: 2002Reputation: 2002Reputation: 2002Reputation: 2002Reputation: 2002Reputation: 2002Reputation: 2002Reputation: 2002Reputation: 2002Reputation: 2002
Well ESR said this:
Quote:
On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 1:09 PM Eric S. Raymond <esr at thyrsus.com> wrote:

> Here is everything you need to know about the ESD:
>
> * Its originator is a toxic loonytoon who believes "show me the code"
> meritocracy is at best outmoded and in general a sinister supremacist
> plot by straight white cisgender males.
I'd submit that such a distribution list is for discussing, criticising, attacking ideas and concepts, even with ESR's colourful language, but not for personal attacks like toxic loonytoon. My guess is that this and perhaps a history of earlier personal attacks led to the ban.

The secret tribunal that came to this decision seems to be counter to the idea of "open", though. But perhaps "open" is strictly limited to "source", not to decision-making.
 
2 members found this post helpful.
Old 03-11-2020, 08:02 PM   #5
frankbell
LQ Guru
 
Registered: Jan 2006
Location: Virginia, USA
Distribution: Slackware, Ubuntu MATE, Mageia, and whatever VMs I happen to be playing with
Posts: 19,272
Blog Entries: 28

Rep: Reputation: 6124Reputation: 6124Reputation: 6124Reputation: 6124Reputation: 6124Reputation: 6124Reputation: 6124Reputation: 6124Reputation: 6124Reputation: 6124Reputation: 6124
I do not have an opinion about this case, and maybe it's my conservative upbringing (in terms of etiquette and politeness, that is), but I find some the high value that some persons place on having a right to be rude somewhat puzzling.

Just a stray thought.
 
2 members found this post helpful.
Old 03-11-2020, 08:29 PM   #6
JWJones
Senior Member
 
Registered: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,444

Rep: Reputation: 709Reputation: 709Reputation: 709Reputation: 709Reputation: 709Reputation: 709Reputation: 709
Sounds like more SJW madness and political correctness run amok. Happened at FreeBSD, too.
 
4 members found this post helpful.
Old 03-11-2020, 09:22 PM   #7
andigena
Member
 
Registered: Sep 2019
Location: USA
Distribution: nixos, but i prefer plan 9
Posts: 141

Rep: Reputation: 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWJones View Post
Sounds like more SJW madness and political correctness run amok. Happened at FreeBSD, too.
Is expecting people to have an ounce of decorum what's considered SJW madness nowadays?
 
1 members found this post helpful.
Old 03-11-2020, 09:46 PM   #8
JWJones
Senior Member
 
Registered: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,444

Rep: Reputation: 709Reputation: 709Reputation: 709Reputation: 709Reputation: 709Reputation: 709Reputation: 709
Quote:
Originally Posted by andigena View Post
Is expecting people to have an ounce of decorum what's considered SJW madness nowadays?
No, but I'm pretty sure those folks at OSI have a pretty good idea of ESR's character, so it shouldn't come as any surprise as to his reaction to thin-skinned crybabies.

Let's face it, many talented people are sometimes abrasive and rude; Linus dealt with the same thing recently. People need to quit their damn whining and stop crying to mama every time somebody says something mean to them and hurts their precious little snowflake feelings.

I hear millennials whimpering about this stuff a lot lately, so sorry if this seems abrasive and rude, haha. It just makes me want to bellow "STFU and GTFO!"
 
2 members found this post helpful.
Old 03-11-2020, 10:45 PM   #9
berndbausch
LQ Addict
 
Registered: Nov 2013
Location: Tokyo
Distribution: Mostly Ubuntu and Centos
Posts: 6,316

Rep: Reputation: 2002Reputation: 2002Reputation: 2002Reputation: 2002Reputation: 2002Reputation: 2002Reputation: 2002Reputation: 2002Reputation: 2002Reputation: 2002Reputation: 2002
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWJones View Post
No, but I'm pretty sure those folks at OSI have a pretty good idea of ESR's character, so it shouldn't come as any surprise as to his reaction to thin-skinned crybabies.

Let's face it, many talented people are sometimes abrasive and rude; Linus dealt with the same thing recently.
Looks like ESR didn't deal with it.
Quote:
People need to quit their damn whining and stop crying to mama every time somebody says something mean to them and hurts their precious little snowflake feelings.
There are different opinions about this. Some people reserve the right to be rude. Others reserve the right to impose civility.

I'd like to point out that Linuxquestions seems to be in the latter camp.

Now, whether ESR's ban is justified, and how it was carried out, are topics that can be discussed. I don't think the OSI handled this well, but I don't know the history, so I should be silent.

EDIT: This is how Bruce Perens deals with the license that triggers ESR: https://perens.com/2019/09/23/sorry-...nse-cant-work/. No need for rudeness.

Last edited by berndbausch; 03-12-2020 at 02:53 AM.
 
1 members found this post helpful.
Old 03-12-2020, 05:13 AM   #10
Pastychomper
Member
 
Registered: Sep 2011
Location: Scotland
Distribution: Slackware, Devuan, Android
Posts: 132

Rep: Reputation: 243Reputation: 243Reputation: 243
Lunduke makes an interesting point about the apparent lack of a smoking gun in the mailing list's archives, and OSI's reluctance to specify the "offensive emails" they referred to. If it was the "toxic loonytoon" comment then I'm surprised they chose to ban rather than warn - but I don't follow the list in question.

Ironically, ESR's famously abrasive manner makes him an easy target here, so I think it's worth asking questions even if we can't know the whole story. On the other hand he only just joined the list, so this might be a storm in a teacup rather than a sign of advanced rot.

FWIW I don't think ESR's tendency to shoot his mouth off is a reason to get rid of him altogether. I've worked with people who had worse traits and they still got their jobs done.
 
Old 03-12-2020, 03:27 PM   #11
ChuangTzu
Senior Member
 
Registered: May 2015
Location: Where ever needed
Distribution: Slackware/Salix while testing others
Posts: 1,718

Original Poster
Rep: Reputation: 1857Reputation: 1857Reputation: 1857Reputation: 1857Reputation: 1857Reputation: 1857Reputation: 1857Reputation: 1857Reputation: 1857Reputation: 1857Reputation: 1857
Quote:
Originally Posted by andigena View Post
Is expecting people to have an ounce of decorum what's considered SJW madness nowadays?
Most of humanity's greatest achievements came from people who were often not politically correct nor mild mannered, one could argue that having the courage to speak out and go against the tide/current are prerequisites for great achievement.

I leave this for you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbZhpf3sQxQ
 
Old 03-12-2020, 03:34 PM   #12
ChuangTzu
Senior Member
 
Registered: May 2015
Location: Where ever needed
Distribution: Slackware/Salix while testing others
Posts: 1,718

Original Poster
Rep: Reputation: 1857Reputation: 1857Reputation: 1857Reputation: 1857Reputation: 1857Reputation: 1857Reputation: 1857Reputation: 1857Reputation: 1857Reputation: 1857Reputation: 1857
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastychomper View Post
Lunduke makes an interesting point about the apparent lack of a smoking gun in the mailing list's archives, and OSI's reluctance to specify the "offensive emails" they referred to. If it was the "toxic loonytoon" comment then I'm surprised they chose to ban rather than warn - but I don't follow the list in question.

Ironically, ESR's famously abrasive manner makes him an easy target here, so I think it's worth asking questions even if we can't know the whole story. On the other hand he only just joined the list, so this might be a storm in a teacup rather than a sign of advanced rot.

FWIW I don't think ESR's tendency to shoot his mouth off is a reason to get rid of him altogether. I've worked with people who had worse traits and they still got their jobs done.
People need to get over themselves, there is nothing wrong with telling someone they F*cked up and should know better. We need to encourage/demand the highest levels of achievement and deter mediocre results. Ever wonder why we no longer produce Michelangelo's, Lao Tzu's, Zhang Heng, Moses etc...
 
Old 03-12-2020, 04:15 PM   #13
Timothy Miller
Moderator
 
Registered: Feb 2003
Location: Arizona, USA
Distribution: Debian, EndeavourOS, OpenSUSE, KDE Neon
Posts: 4,001
Blog Entries: 26

Rep: Reputation: 1521Reputation: 1521Reputation: 1521Reputation: 1521Reputation: 1521Reputation: 1521Reputation: 1521Reputation: 1521Reputation: 1521Reputation: 1521Reputation: 1521
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuangTzu View Post
People need to get over themselves, there is nothing wrong with telling someone they F*cked up and should know better. We need to encourage/demand the highest levels of achievement and deter mediocre results. Ever wonder why we no longer produce Michelangelo's, Lao Tzu's, Zhang Heng, Moses etc...
In general, I agree. I LIKE when people are willing to not be all PC about everything, it makes things INTERESTING!!! But for the most part, ESR probably did take it a bit far quite often. But given how long he had done so, does it really make sense for them to suddenly start caring? Not like he was any worse than usual, IMO.
 
3 members found this post helpful.
Old 03-12-2020, 04:21 PM   #14
andigena
Member
 
Registered: Sep 2019
Location: USA
Distribution: nixos, but i prefer plan 9
Posts: 141

Rep: Reputation: 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuangTzu View Post
People need to get over themselves, there is nothing wrong with telling someone they F*cked up and should know better. We need to encourage/demand the highest levels of achievement and deter mediocre results. Ever wonder why we no longer produce Michelangelo's, Lao Tzu's, Zhang Heng, Moses etc...
What a terrible argument. We certainly still produce people who do great things, likely at higher rates than before because people are less likely to die of an incurable disease at 40. Furthermore, the people you cited stand out significantly - the reason it feels like their periods were better is because the loads of garbage that were certainly produced were too terrible to survive the torrent of time; in 4020, the sentient beings inhabiting the earth will think the 2020s were an amazing period for art, philosophy, and science because the hordes of DeviantArt Sonic OCs, gazillions of fallaciously nostalgic web forum posts like this one, and Flat Earth Society meeting transcripts will have been lost.

I'm tired of fake intellectuals bemoaning the woes of modern society when they are the real problem. The countless blog posts about how all modern art is just shapes and millenials are too sensitive are far more intellectually barren and oversensitive than modern art and "social justice warriors."
 
3 members found this post helpful.
Old 03-12-2020, 04:36 PM   #15
ChuangTzu
Senior Member
 
Registered: May 2015
Location: Where ever needed
Distribution: Slackware/Salix while testing others
Posts: 1,718

Original Poster
Rep: Reputation: 1857Reputation: 1857Reputation: 1857Reputation: 1857Reputation: 1857Reputation: 1857Reputation: 1857Reputation: 1857Reputation: 1857Reputation: 1857Reputation: 1857
Quote:
Originally Posted by andigena View Post
What a terrible argument. We certainly still produce people who do great things, likely at higher rates than before because people are less likely to die of an incurable disease at 40. Furthermore, the people you cited stand out significantly - the reason it feels like their periods were better is because the loads of garbage that were certainly produced were too terrible to survive the torrent of time; in 4020, the sentient beings inhabiting the earth will think the 2020s were an amazing period for art, philosophy, and science because the hordes of DeviantArt Sonic OCs, gazillions of fallaciously nostalgic web forum posts like this one, and Flat Earth Society meeting transcripts will have been lost.

I'm tired of fake intellectuals bemoaning the woes of modern society when they are the real problem. The countless blog posts about how all modern art is just shapes and millenials are too sensitive are far more intellectually barren and oversensitive than modern art and "social justice warriors."
Regarding the lifespan argument that is relative to the culture and society you are referencing, not all are as short lived as the west was.

I agree there is a tendency wax nostalgic for the past, however, that is not always the correct assessment. There is clearly a downward slide in society in general, and specifically this is noted in different time periods in the past/present when tyranny is planting its seeds. One must always guard against two virulent tyrants: censorship/restriction/legislation of speech which leads to the censorship/restriction and legislation of thought. This is apparent with incidents similar to ESR, RMS, Torvalds and (OT) but also the removal and destruction of historical statues just because the memory may offend someone. If we attempt to cleanse the past and remove our mistakes from history then we surely will repeat them. History is to be learned from not forgotten. History is more often then not cyclical rather then linear, the circle is far more powerful then the square or line.
 
2 members found this post helpful.
  


Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
LXer: Eric Raymond: Yes, "open source" is still meaningful LXer Syndicated Linux News 1 03-05-2007 08:07 AM
LXer: Open Source Pioneer, Eric S. Raymond, Joins Freespire Leadership Board LXer Syndicated Linux News 0 10-16-2006 05:21 PM
LXer: Open-source guru Eric Raymond joins Freespire board LXer Syndicated Linux News 0 09-27-2006 07:33 AM
Has Anyone Met Eric S. Raymond?! Colonel Panic General 8 07-25-2001 06:44 AM

LinuxQuestions.org > Forums > Linux Forums > Linux - General

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:52 PM.

Main Menu
Advertisement
My LQ
Write for LQ
LinuxQuestions.org is looking for people interested in writing Editorials, Articles, Reviews, and more. If you'd like to contribute content, let us know.
Main Menu
Syndicate
RSS1  Latest Threads
RSS1  LQ News
Twitter: @linuxquestions
Open Source Consulting | Domain Registration