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Old 07-13-2005, 05:53 AM   #1
kromag
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Lightbulb My idea's for linux hardware


I'm really tired as I write this article of sorts, it's late but I have a few theory's about Linux and I want to express them here, maybe this group can give me perspective on the reality of the growing HCL issue. The biggest hurdle most noob's have setting up is hardware, at least the was true for me. It might not apply to all. By hardware I mean setting up web-cams,MP3 players, printers, USB wireless cards, scanners and add on stuff. All the neat stuff Window user's get handed to them drop in a disk and their in business (until windows dump of course-lol). Why can't we as a formidable force in the Desktop race band together and create a division of hardware manufacturers that produce products solely for the Linux lifestyle?

We donít have to start big, we can hire one company to design one thing like a web-cam(Iím using this as an example). That has RPMíS TARíS GZIPíS or whatever that come on a disk that you can retrieve the information needed for your type of system..cough* Fedora... and then you attach the device and whamo! You have what you need. A working device. If enough of our world wide community supports devices that can be bought in the regular market place, that work with our operating systems, than maybe we can move on to making other devices like printers and our very own Ogg, players! OGGPODS anyone? Wouldnít it be great to be free of so called patented material such as mp3ís? Or even better walking into a best-buy or Compusa (local electronic stores) and wondering over to the Linux section of devices and software! Oh joy would I spend my hard earned cash every week!

I want this group or any other person to realize Iím not a guru when it comes to software, I love the open source community and I want nothing more than Linux to be neck and neck with any other competitor in the software biz, with out playing dirty tricks and-or stepping on the kernel purist and their work like some other companies are famous for. I would like to see Linux for sale, or free what ever it takes to achieve the goals of making a safe dependable operating system. Maybe we could make it a clause that for every device sold a portion goes into Linux software development? Supporting the hard working people creating great add-ons such as messenger programs and audio recorders that come standard with almost every distro of Linux Iíve ever used. Then I wouldnít feel guilty using this great software, because I would be supporting some one buy spending money, see how that works?

So if any one wants to flame me or shoot me down go ahead, Iíll attach my e-mail, but I would rather hear good things like ďit can be done and will be doneĒ.

Sincerely,

Kromag

Last edited by kromag; 07-13-2005 at 05:59 AM.
 
Old 07-13-2005, 06:25 AM   #2
marghorp
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I think the most obvious reasons why manufacturers don't produce Linux drivers or software for their product are these:

1.) Linux is not that wide spread (at least not officially as it is not possible to count the countless boxes linux is running on), and I am not trying to criticize.

2.) There are so many different linux distros, that not any manufacturer can produce a driver that would work on all, and don't want to produce a driver that wouldn't work on some distros. It's much easier for them to produce a driver that works on windows, because all windows are the same.

3.) Well that's about all I have to say. But yes, it would be nice to have linux hardware and software generally available.
 
Old 07-13-2005, 07:10 AM   #3
kromag
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Well. this is my point of veiw.

If we start small. One device, one distro to show the companies we can do this, that we are a driving force in the electronic market. We can tell them we are open source, we do have demands, we are willing to spend money to prove it. W eca make a market where there is none, it's been done in teh past tons of times. We just need to create demand. For F's sakes we have enough programmers, coders and tech support and some are working for free or scraps. Lets get these guys paid, give then a piece of the pie they so badly deserve. If anything to show them are apriciation for all their hard work and sleepless nights figuring out what some of us fear-,,code. I look at code and streams of commands and I just crap. I don't have the intestinal fortitude to work that jive out!


I can feel it in my bones, we need to band together, enough of the petty bickering between Unix and Linux. I hate that about Unix. The cut downs and the slaps in the face about linux+user=luser. That type of attitude is so counter productive. If we as a group found our nitch in the desktop arena and started grabbing market shares, then I bet you dollars to doughnuts that Unix would reverse their sometimes snobby attitude and jump on board. I wouldn't mind either, they are our brothers no matter what they say..

Microsoft and companies like them do not run the world, thay have a good seat at the top but that doesn't mean they are going to stay there. Not that I'm looking to take over their position, I just want Linux to get a really good comfortable position in the software world.


kromag- thinking out side of the box
 
Old 07-13-2005, 07:51 AM   #4
enemorales
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Just a thought: You don't have to make hardware compatible with every linux or 1 distribution. You only have to make good hardware (open specs) and it will become naturally compatible by all the distributions...

Anyway, I think IBM and other companies are pushing in these lines, isn't it?
 
Old 07-13-2005, 01:49 PM   #5
KimVette
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It's been done, in the form of a TV Tuner/VIVO card. check out http://www.pchdtv.com
 
Old 07-13-2005, 02:00 PM   #6
Matir
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http://www.penguincomputing.com
http://www.emperorlinux.com
 
Old 07-14-2005, 03:52 PM   #7
Charred
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I personally believe that it's just a matter of time until all major hardware manufacturers realize that that it's in their best interest to either go open source or release their own version of Linux drivers. Look at how much market share Linux has accumulated without a marketing strategy or ad campaign! Granted, the exact numbers are difficult to quantify, but on the whole they have been on the rise, despite the massive presence of M$ and the smug self-righteousness of sMac.

Eventually, someone's going to attempt to take Linux and turn it into M$, if it hasn't happened already; if it has, it will happen again, and probably soon. This will make a lot of people (namely, us) very angry, and will end in complete failure. The only way to capitalize on an OS is to limit its definition...to say it IS this, and IS NOT that, and nobody else has the right to alter it, which limits the software's usability. GNU/Linux, by its very nature, has the ability to be everything to everybody. If there is no distro that meets your needs, you are free not only to make one that does, but also to give a copy to everyone you know with similar needs. The only way GNU/Linux could become profitable in the sense that Windoze is profitable would be for someone to take ALL the distros and ball them up into one huge uberdistro, which would lead to massive resource consumption (that would increase with every subsequent release), system instabilities and weird bugs and glitches as different pieces of code attempted to do the same thing in different ways at the same time, and a multitude of sercurity holes that would be nearly impossible to predict and therefore would need to be fixed via regular "updates," either as they were found by the company's programmers or after they were exploited by internet ne'er-do-wells! (Ok, so I got a bit carried away, sue me! Other than my difficulties with GUI's in general, I don't really bear M$ any particular ill-will. Indeed, I used to be a BIG M$ supporter; I still don't see them as evil, per se, just as I don't believe that rattlesnakes and scorpions are evil. That doesn't change the fact that I will always be careful whenever I have to interact with M$, a rattlesnake or a scorpion--they may not be evil, but they're still dangerous, predatory creatures with motives of their own!)

It's a lot like how one of my favorite groups, Widespread Panic, approaches the whole music piracy issue: instead of being uptight over whether or not they're squeezing every last penny out of all their fans, they allow you to bring cameras and recording devices to their concerts, and even provide recordings of their concerts for free on their website, and they don't appear to be harmed by their decision to focus on the music. To the contrary, they have a massive fan base spanning many demographics that I don't believe they could have acquired otherwise!

Similaryl, as time wanders ever onward, and GNU/Linux continues to grow in market share, and we continue to harass the hardware manufacturers over their lack of support, more and more of them will begin to realize just how many Linux users there are. This will lead to the further realization that, just as with Windoze, if a Linux user is looking at two pieces of hardware that do the same thing, and one says "Linux <insert kernel & distro here> compatible, whilst the other doesn't, chances are the user will go with what is known to work. Given that many, if not most, Linux users also use one of the other OSes, attracting Linux market share means increasing their marketshare in this other area as well, and no company has so much market share that they couldn't do with a little more.

Whether M$, Unix, sMac, we or anyone else likes it or not, GNU/Linux is here to stay.
 
Old 07-14-2005, 07:49 PM   #8
Komakino
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Re: My idea's for linux hardware

Quote:
Originally posted by kromag

So if any one wants to flame me or shoot me down go ahead, Iíll attach my e-mail, but I would rather hear good things like ďit can be done and will be doneĒ.

Sincerely,

Kromag
I'd say "It can be done and will be done" but I doubt it will be in a world that has not yet mastered punctuation. Once the world knows how to use the humble apostrophe we can start converting to Linux.

On a less pedantic, cynical and sarcastic note I'd say that it's not a bad plan. Though I'm not sure if I understood right - are you planning for hardware to support linux or to be exclusively for linux? The former would be great, the latter is just a hypocritical alternative to the the current state of affairs.

Incidentally, I was heartened to see in the instructions of an MP3 player in our shop the other day, "Supports Windows 95, 98, 2000, ME & XP, MacOS 9.0 and X, and Red Hat Linux 7.3 and compatible. Hey, it's a start.
 
Old 07-15-2005, 12:56 PM   #9
Charred
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Re: My idea's for linux hardware

Quote:
Originally posted by kromag
...Then I wouldnít feel guilty using this great software, because I would be supporting some one buy spending money,..
If you feel guilty using software you haven't paid for, then please feel free to donate a bit of scratch for the upkeep of your favorite distro and programs. Consider, also, that your time is also worth money, so when you try to help someone resolve a problem they may be having with their box you can consider that money spent for the right to use Linux. This is more than an OS, it's a community!

I do not buy into the touchy-feely, let's-all-hug-and-be-friends, can't-we-all-just-get-along philosophy of life; people annoy me too much, and I have a great talent for irritating others in return. All that to the side, however, I must admit to being impressed with the openness and willingness to help that I have witnessed on a regular basis since I joined LQ, and I consider myself to be a fairly cynical person.
Quote:
Originally posted by Komakino
I doubt it will be in a world that has not yet mastered punctuation. Once the world knows how to use the humble apostrophe we can start converting to Linux.
As a former English major (I intended to teach English Literature and Journalism at the college level until I realized I had neither the patience necessary to teach nor the liberal politics necessary for journalism ), I, too, find the public's seeming inability to understand the correct usage of the apostrophe a constant irritant (what really bugs me, though, is when my wife says "irregardless." GRRR...), however I DO believe people can make intelligent choices even though they are prone to errors both gramatical and punctual.
 
Old 07-15-2005, 01:07 PM   #10
aysiu
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Re: Re: My idea's for linux hardware

Quote:
Originally posted by Charred
As a former English major (I intended to teach English Literature and Journalism at the college level until I realized I had neither the patience necessary to teach nor the liberal politics necessary for journalism ), I, too, find the public's seeming inability to understand the correct usage of the apostrophe a constant irritant (what really bugs me, though, is when my wife says "irregardless." GRRR...), however I DO believe people can make intelligent choices even though they are prone to errors both gramatical and punctual.
Perhaps you'd be interested in knowing that this is how to spell grammatical and that however is not a conjunction. While I, too, find irregardless to be an infuriating word, it is a word, even though it's not acceptable in formal writing. What bothers me more than irregardless is the phrase "I could care less" intended to mean "I couldn't care less." Oh, well. You win some; you lose some.
 
Old 07-15-2005, 03:28 PM   #11
Komakino
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Re: Re: Re: My idea's for linux hardware

Quote:
Originally posted by aysiu
What bothers me more than irregardless is the phrase "I could care less" intended to mean "I couldn't care less." Oh, well. You win some; you lose some.
Oooh, now you've hit on another of my pet hates! The "could care less" expression is one seemingly used most by Americans. I guess they can be excused, not being native English speakers

Oh, and 'however' is indeed a conjunction (and an adverb) according to the Collins English Dictionary.

Last edited by Komakino; 07-15-2005 at 03:32 PM.
 
Old 07-15-2005, 04:05 PM   #12
kromag
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y grammar and punctuation really need a little work. I can understand expressing your self correctly can further your cause what ever it may be. I tend to rant when I'm tired and I have very large hands and they have yet to make a keyboard that fits my needs. Not everyone that works on computers is 5 foot tall and a 130 pounds. So as a result I tend to just push out the idea in my head quickly. Iím not afraid to make mistakes in public Iím human. Focus on the mistakes in the written word and you'll find them. In history there have been some of the greatest men that had suffered from dyslexia and this particular disability did not diminish their accomplishments at all. If anything it made them stronger.

If my point to this to this exorcise was to get a grade in English Iím sure I would have failed. It wasnít though, it was to better understand Linux and itís lack of hardware support on basic external equipment such as web cams and USB wireless cards-to start. I donít understand why the GNU/Linux companies like Redhat and SUSE donít make a product of their own that works solely with Linux. How much money do you think it would cost to design a prototype device that we use and need on a daily basis such as a web cam to work in a plug and play fashion?


Iím talking hardware that works with Linux only, what ever software needed to incorporate the device into your distro would be sold with it. Take some of the money from the sales and redistribute it back into the development of newer and more stable software.
 
Old 07-15-2005, 04:35 PM   #13
Komakino
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I don't think I'm in favour of what you're suggesting. Hardware should be designed for multiple systems, and certainly not just linux. The more people who can use your hardware, the more units you can produce and shift and the lower the price can be. Linux only would be a small market. Besides, if we try to cut out Windows we're no better than the companies who refuse to provide Linux support for their hardware.

On the other hand, I'm obviously in favour of better hardware compatibility for Linux, and I do like the idea of a "Linux Compatible" sticker on hardware...but that should be "Linux Compatible" not "Linux Exclusive".
 
Old 07-15-2005, 05:00 PM   #14
Charred
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Re: Re: Re: My idea's for linux hardware

Quote:
Originally posted by aysiu
Perhaps you'd be interested in knowing that this is how to spell grammatical and that however is not a conjunction. While I, too, find irregardless to be an infuriating word, it is a word, even though it's not acceptable in formal writing. What bothers me more than irregardless is the phrase "I could care less" intended to mean "I couldn't care less." Oh, well. You win some; you lose some.
...and, at times, one places one's foot in one's mouth! Regrettably, "grammatical" was, indeed, misspelled, and one has also developed the shockingly bad habit of using "however" as a conjunction (which is not, strictly speaking, the done thing when amongst polite society), and unto these mistakes the gentle reader was correct to draw attention. Unfortunately, this sorry list of "convention contraventions," as it were, has not achieved its terminus. To continue; there was insufficient precision in regards to what about the usage of the word "irregardless" is offensive; it should have been stated that the offending behavior is not the mere use of this most estimable word, but, rather, the misuse thereof, that is to say, when "irregardless" is used in place of "regardless" or "irrespective" (additionally, the usage of: "I could care less," when the speaker obviously intends to say: "I couldn't care less," is similarly infuriating).
Furthermore, one should not be referring to one's self with the pronoun "I," and, similarly, to the kind reader as "you," in one's postings, for to so do is generally considered rude in polite society, as is one's overuse of contractions. However, one has found to adhere overmuch to the rules of formal writing, while personally satisfying, is construed by the gentle reader as overt pomposity more oft than otherwise, leading either to jealousy and resentment, or derision and defamation, by those less obsessed with the intricacies of this, the language of the Land of Enge; the sad results of said reactionary behavior on the part of the reader becoming, then, a barrier to open communication and this, to borrow from Sir Winston Churchill, "is something, up with which I shall not put!"

Or, more commonly,

D'oh!

That was A LOT of fun! I no longer have much opportunity for knocking the dust of my language skills. Thanks for shaking me out of my literary daze!

Edit:
This was written, not in an effort to cause anyone to feel under attack, but, rather, because I have an unhealthy obsession for the English language and really enjoy crafting a well-turned phrase, and I'm not opposed to making fun of myself at the same time. So, this is not directed at anyone, least of all you, kromag!

To return to the subject, I agree with Komakino: an exclusionary attitude is not just self-limiting, but it's ultimately self-defeating.

At the outset, the development of a Linux-specific line of hardware is unlikely in the extreme. Given the fact that other OSes will also run on the same architectures Linux uses, and that these OSes are already acknowledged by these same hardware manufacturers, market pressures will continually cause them to develop drivers for these other OSes.

In the case of a new hardware manufacturer, focused solely on Linux, the same market pressures would hold true, but with considerably more force, given the inherent instability of a new company.

Therein lie the limitations. The self-defeat is contained within the concept of dual-booting. How many Linux users, from newbies to gurus, dual-boot their boxes for one reason or another? Taken to its conclusion, quickly we'd find that Linux drivers are, by and large, being written only for the Linux-specific hardware, and because of this, eventually Linux itself will no longer support such a wide range of hardware as easily as it now does, making it harder for new people to make the transition from other OSes.

Last edited by Charred; 07-15-2005 at 05:41 PM.
 
Old 07-15-2005, 05:36 PM   #15
kromag
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Quote:
[i]Originally posted by Komakino

I don't think I'm in favour of what you're suggesting.
I understand what your saying and just let me say you have a very good opinion.

Quote:
. Hardware should be designed for multiple systems
But what if I never intend on using any other OS?

Quote:
The more people who can use your hardware, the more units you can produce and shift and the lower the price can be. Linux only would be a small market.
I disagree, I think Linux and it's user's are world wide and vast in numbers there would be no problem in the sales department of any linux exclusive hardware.


Quote:
if we try to cut out Windows we're no better than the companies who refuse to provide Linux support for their hardware.
Once again I disagree. I'm not trying to cut out Windows I'm trying to further the advancement of Linux. I want Linux to be easier for every one and getting these hardware issue's out of the way would certainly help the average user in adapting. Windows is and never will be an issue. My goals are to help Linux not bash Windows. Negitive energy does nothing for either side. It's also a common fact that Windows has enough customers and money to last them many many life times.

Quote:
On the other hand, I'm obviously in favour of better hardware compatibility for Linux, and I do like the idea of a "Linux Compatible" sticker on hardware...but that should be "Linux Compatible" not "Linux Exclusive".
Well I want Linux exclusive hardware for a couple of reasons.

(1) Windows or any other entity later on down the road can't claim patten rites or some other dribble.

(2) I want the user to be free and clear of any misunderstandings legal or otherwaise so they can use these Linux products in any way they wish with out fear of persacution.
 
  


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